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By many accounts there were hundreds of massacres during the US war in Indochina, but for a single incident My Lai was one of the bigger ones, and the only ones where Americans were actually prosecuted and convicted.
Colin Powell weighed the evidence, read the reports and did whatever it is investigators do. Then he told the higher ups that nothing happened. Nothing. No harm, no foul, no three to seven hundred dead women and children. Powell did not just participate in the cover-up. He played a lead role in it. Of course if he hadn't that would have been the end of his career. The US military is nothing if not an utterly unforgiving bureaucracy, and ratting out other officers is seriously frowned upon. So his going along with Bush to lie to us and get a much larger number of folks killed was no aberration, no one-time thing. It was his career pattern, and that of almost every military officer.
then is your real beef with Powell; or with the military, and military culture, in general?
That said, I think he's done with politics, and is very much enjoying the consulting gig.
History will remember Powell, like Ronnie said, as a man who exemplified the values of loyalty and honor. The "blot" that some would put on his record from the UN speech will-and is beginning to-fade over time.
I too have a soft spot for Powell and know of all his dirt. I think it's a case of "when you know better, you do better". I think he was in the system for years and his conscience caught up to him.
No matter how honorable, or noble we may think Colin Powell is, the bottom line for me is when he had the opportunity to stand for honor and nobility, he folded and compromised. Not to mention he threw in his lot with the most contemptable and corrupted Presidential Administration since Richard Milhous Nixon and Ronald Wilson Reagan combined.
But we're supposed to give him credit because the stench of foul activities got to him and he was pretty much forced out?
I would have had more respect for him if he went out like Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill did. And O'Neill was a very wealthy corporate guy who thought he was serving his country when he agreed to take the position as Treasury Secretary, only to be handed his ass and fired when he refused to go along with Bush ripping off the country and using Treasury as a money printing press.
So, I think he's (Powell) the last person to be in a position to criticize the preaching philosophy of Jeremiah Wright. The positive that comes out of the whole saga is that Whites got those YouTube clips of Wright's sermons in full and listened to what he had to say, by which they wound up agreeing with most of what he was teaching.
And we have not seen Rev. Wright back down, retract, or try to sugar-coat what he said. He's sticking by his principles, his Christian faith and beliefs from which those principles came, and to me, he's in a far better position of nobility and honor than Colin Powell can ever dream of, or Barack Obama could ever contemplate.
Powell's acceptability is cloaked in his military uniform. I consider him a good soldier who did as he was ordered, but as my collegue, Bruce Dixon, pointed out, when he had the opportunity to give orders, he gave them in My Lai based on what he was being ordered to do by the SecDef, even though it was WRONG.
A person of principles, moral character, honor and nobility, will do what follows those characteristics, even if he find himself standing alone. He can sleep at night knowing he did what was right.
I'm not going to attempt to speak intelligently about Mai Lai, but it seems to be the same sort of situation.
Powell's roles in the government-from National Security Advisor to Secretary of State-gave him ample room to warn against a particular course of action, which by all accounts, he did.
Placing the mission first, at whatever cost to your life or personal standing-as stated in the Army's Soldier's Creed-is the truest nobility.
-If he felt so strongly that Iraq was wrong (and I don't think he did), he could have resigned.
He didn't.
He went along with the program.
Fuck him.
Powell, who is a Republican, would provide some credence to Obama's change and unity mantra.
"The so-called Principals who participated in the meetings also approved the use of "combined" interrogation techniques -- using different techniques during interrogations, instead of using one method at a time -- on terrorist suspects who proved difficult to break, sources said."
"Highly placed sources said a handful of top advisers signed off on how the CIA would interrogate top al Qaeda suspects -- whether they would be slapped, pushed, deprived of sleep or subjected to simulated drowning, called waterboarding."
"The high-level discussions about these "enhanced interrogation techniques" were so detailed, these sources said, some of the interrogation sessions were almost choreographed -- down to the number of times CIA agents could use a specific tactic."
"The advisers were members of the National Security Council's Principals Committee, a select group of senior officials who met frequently to advise President Bush on issues of national security policy."
"At the time, the Principals Committee included Vice President Cheney, former National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Colin Powell, as well as CIA Director George Tenet and Attorney General John Ashcroft."
-ABC News, April 9, 2008
-If he does that, Obama is a damned fool.
If Obama is in the tarnished legacy business, he might as well have Hillary as his VP, too!
Obama does not need Powell's baggage (you are against the Iraq War, but you're hiring one of the architects of the Iraq War?
Brilliant! [snark])
Whatever his "baggage" as you say, will be minimal compared to what he brings to the table. His semi- endorsement is already having the desired effect..instead of talking about Wright, we are debating Powell.
Imagine this scenario, Obama locks up the nomination in June, and quickly announces the following:
Sen. Chuck Hagel as VP and Colin Powell as Secretary of Defense.
Powell said that the next president will face limitations on bringing troops home, as Sens. Barack Obama and Hillary Rodham Clinton — rivals for the Democratic nomination — have promised to do.
"They will have to continue to draw down at some pace," he said. "None of them are going to have the flexibility of just saying we're out of here, turn off the switch, turn off the lights, we're leaving. They will have a situation before them."
At some point before the convention or after he is nominated, Obama will have to face reality and alter his stance on the war.
Is Powell paving the way for Obama to move to the center on the war?
He doesn't know Reverend Wright but has the audacity to pass judgment on him!!??? The same Sell-out Powell who stood before the world and proclaim a lie and knew he was lying and have the nerve, the outright nerve to criticize Reverend Wright?
Yes, this is the black man that many conservatives would have loved being the first to run as president. As you can see what kind of man he is, the go-along-to-get-along type, the quintessential black republican, who would throw not only his mother, but his grandmother and anybody else under the bus to try and gain these racists folks approval.
Now somebody please try to explain to me why I must even consider anything this man says as relevant. He wasn't relevant to me when he had a position of authority to speak truth to power and CHOOSE not to, as Reverend Wright did and has.
I could continue this vent, but I will contain myself.
What a fu(&*YTI sell-out.
now lets see, Powell lied about weapons of mass destruction and as a result at present more than 4000 American solidiers are DEAD, thousands maimed, thousands of Iraqis DEAD and their homeland bombed into dust, from Powell's contribution to one of the most horrific, immoral, illegal wars in this nations history.
Reverend Wright speaks truth that is only deplorable to people who don't want to hear it.
Powell silently went along with this abomination because he was being a good soldier.
Yes, now tell me what is more "deplorable."
Though it would be interesting to see how many other African Americans would come to their defense. I can guess at a number, and it's pretty close to....zero.
What is unfair about ensuring that a handkerchiefhead(s) are shown for what they are?
Unfair, you have got to be kidding!
Tell that to the families of all the DEAD people's families, both American and Iraqi and the people who have been tortured using techniques discussed and approved by the senior staff that included both Rice and Powell.
Unfair, sheesh.
What if they had counted all the votes in 2000?
Put on a personal level: would you be willing to have your entire career judged on the basis of one event? Come off the talking points for a minute, and consider that.
I understand you are strongly against the war (or just about anything done to protect our country, but I digress)...but can you really justify basing your dislike of someone on a single event?
And unless you're going to tell me that GEN Powell never once disagreed with the methods of interrogation that were approved (which you can't, unless you were at the meeting yourself), you have no way of knowing whether he stood up against them at one point or not.
I guess the concept of serving on a team-and the ability to place the goals of that team above your personal feelings to accomplish a greater cause-is something that's lost on the civilian sector.
I understand you are strongly against the war (or just about anything done to protect our country, but I digress)...but can you really justify basing your dislike of someone on a single event?
d, how did you guess?
Putting words in my mouth huh D. Why is it every time anyone not just me says something about this immoral war we are against protecting the country?
Now I personally judge him not on the decision, but his involvement in it knowing as he should have as a military man, the destruction that it would cause and did, he even said that about the pottery barn theory, yet went along with it anyway. If he disagreed with what was going on he should have said something publically, that shit about being a good soldier is just that, pure BS.
Yes, he should be judged on this ONE decision, a decision that resulted in death and destruction.
The old team player argument huh? Yes, being a team player is always best even when you know the team you are on is cheating to win, d? Just look the other way as they steal, cheat and lie their way to victory. A cheap victory if I ever saw one. Sometimes the moral thing to do is stand up in spite of your team when you know they are wrong.
Now tell me what greater goals were accomplished? School me.
________________________________________
With a little adjustment, this could just as easily be seen as a line of defense of Wright, but alas, not for Powell...
Big double standard here at JJP.
d, you're a voice in the wilderness here. Too bad.
Clinton is still be touted as a top-of-the-ticket candidate with Obama as her running mate.
Unbelievable.
::
Please show me where Wright's actions have led to the death more than 4,000 Americans and devastated their families.
Show me.
Good soldiers-on in this case, members of a presidential cabinet-don't speak out against their leadership (in this case, the President) once a decision they disagree with has been made. That gets them fired. Remember ADM Fallon from a few weeks ago? The liberal conspiracy theorists would have you believe that he was "fired" FOR speaking out.
I mention your being against the protection of this country only because you brought it into the argument.
By your logic, any president-or member of the president's administration-should be judged in the negative if the country went to war. Congratulations, you've just thrown several great presidents-from BOTH parties-under the bus.
_____________
Anon 10:24,
Please don't spin that....LOL.
Except for the Obama criticism, I agree with D. I think Powell is comfortable in civilian life. If he were even thinking about a position in the Obama administration, he (Powell) would have already started his mea culpa tour around the Sunday morning talk show circuit.
Panama has deep racial divisions, and Noriega had serious popular support in some of Panama city's poorest neighborhoods. So the US military, on Gen. Powell's watch, to prevent thousands of black poor people from coming out into the streets to support their guy Noriega during the US invasion, sent aircraft to bomb and burn those poor black shantytowns to prevent unfortunate political disturbances.
Those poor black people, hundreds of them, whose murders were ordered by Gen. Powell had no copters or planes of their own to fight against the US military, no anti-aircraft defenses. It was a civilian neighborhood and they lived there. With wives and aunties and children. They were wives, and aunties and granfathers and children.
I have a couple friends who were there, and it's documented in a number of places. The neighborhood was called El Chorillo.
"Brothers Talking about Obama"
http://thoughtmerchant.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/brothers-talking-about-obama/
Thought Merchant
www.thoughtmerchant.wordpress.com
Politics and commentary for the thinking person of color
OMG. OMG.
How in the hell did I say I did not want this country protected, you idiot!! Yes, I went there.
If Powell was so afraid of standing up and man up and speak the truth, his sorry ass should have been fired, YET, he stayed and went along and would have stayed for the next four years but had outlived his usefulness to the other idiot and was let go, like other help that is no longer needed. If he is a profile of a good soldier, then Lord help us all. He is a sell-out, handkerchief head, all about me, egotistical, arrogant, asshole. Yeah, I said that too.
You also said:
By your logic, any president-or member of the president's administration-should be judged in the negative if the country went to war. Congratulations, you've just thrown several great presidents-from BOTH parties-under the bus.
If the country went to war for the right reasons to defend an against an invasion or imminent invasion of this country, then most reasonable people would stand up salute and sing God Bless America, however, as usual you once again make an assumption that makes what of you.
As a proud American I don't automatically genuflect when I hear the words America right or wrong, because America d, has been wrong on so many levels.
Not read what you will into that.
So be it.
==================================
This statement is so wrong on so many levels, if it was so sad, it might possibly be laughable.
Truly pathetic that this person actually believes what he just wrote.
You do realize this same "sell-out, handkerchief head, all about me, egotistical, arrogant, asshole" is the one who put his life on the line so you can freely say the things you just did, correct?
As a Political Junkie, I can't do that. Just last night in my Foreign Policy class, my instructor assigned a book written by Francis Fukuyama on foreign policy. I objected because Fukuyama was a signatory on the "Project for a New American Century" which was 1997 documant that rolled out the Iraq War, exactly as it was carried out, complete with 9/11 "Pearl Harbor-like" event to get the public buy-in on attacking Iraq.
I was admonished to read the book because even Fukuyama realized he'd thrown in his lot with a bunch of f-tards and wanted no part of it. He went so far as to write a book condemning all of it, and that's the book I'm assigned to read. I can read it with less bias, because Fukuyama realised his errors, apologized and got out.
Has Powell apologized for going to the U. N. and lying about WMDs? He's certainly tap-danced around the issue; sounding apologetic in foreign media interviews without actually apologizing. He's even admitted on the air in an interview done about two years ago on "20/20" that he and Bush were still friends who had dinner together and shot the breeze.
This, after disagreeing with Bush, Bush froze him out because Powell was saying stuff Bush didn't want to hear. If you really want to know how Bush operates, read Bob Woodward's "State of Denial: Bush at War, Part III". Rumsfeld treated Powell with abject contempt and Bush didn't check Rummy on it, either. Bush wanted a war, and by God, Rummy and Powell, perhaps at gunpoint, delievered it to him.
THEN, Powell resigns. But the damage is done, so he might as well leave.
He should be evaluated on the merits of his actions as a member of Bush's cabinet. It was pointed out upthread, that Powell did warn the Administration about the risks of war - yet after warning them, he fell in line and became a team player to the point of assisting in the facilitation of that war.
Lesser ranked military officials, because they understood their oath as military officers, saw what this Administration was trying to do and rather than be a part of it, they all resigned or retired from military service, because while they understood the military creed, code and honor, they were equally unwilling to tarnish their own records by being a team player and aiding and abetting the worst criminality of a POTUS administration since Nixon, and Bush makes Nixon look like a Boy Scout by comparison. Just recently, as reported in Black Agenda Report, similar military officials had to "leak" the details of Bush's plans to invade Iran because they were just like the plans to invade Iraq - the military had to stage its own "coup" in order to check the POTUS gone wild.
Their honor and military code demanded it.
I did an ROTC stint - so I fully understand the time honored military code in terms of combat and strategy; it must be done because it has to and in order to defend the country from attack. Where did Iraq attack us? And with what? Those WMDs that Reagan sent Rummy over to Iraq with, when it was feasible to take out Iran back in 1983?
Additionally, the only area I will cut Powell a little slack is the fact his son was in the Bush Cabinet as well and he may have very well went along to protect Michael, while Mike FUBARed the FCC beyond all recognition, and allowed for full monopolization of the media, which has been equally complicit in crimes and covering up for this administration.
Those are the facts that can be verified through Google, Black Agenda Report and other publications on the web.
I don't have to forgive or not forgive Powell - if I felt he had something to offer politically, I would still say what I've stated, and provide reasons why I would support him. He just jumped on the "beat-up-Dr. Jeremiah Wright-bandwagon" cause as Uncle Ruckus of the Boondocks would say, he's being a good lil' "Nigglet".
For their service I thank them.
I wonder what Rev. Wright thinks of Powell?
::
I wonder what Powell thinks of Powell.
Have you not been reading what I said?
Its not a matter of whether or not I respect Colin Powell, it is a matter of whether Colin Powell respects/respected himself? Or his lack of respect for Americans that he went along with the lies of this administration.
Colin Powell is the man in the mirror.
I've read all the back and forth and enjoy the discussions, and I have to answer CPL above, yeah, it's because he's Black...ain't right, maybe. But, I understand the arguments against him. Maybe I think he's trying for some sort of redemption.
d,
I appreciate you bringing forth your consistent argument, because we need to hear opposing viewpoints on this, if only to remind us that there is another side.
But, I'm loving this heated debate. Black Republicans never make it boring around here..LOL
L
I guess some segments of the liberal populace will keep throwing good men-and women-under the bus until Bush is jailed, Obama is elected, the military is withdrawn from Iraq with no concern for the future, and Iran becomes a nuclear state.
"I quit ROTC when I got the scope of what went on at My Lai and gave up plans for military career I'd had since I was 10."
If the certain unpleasant facts of war were shocking enough for you to abandon plans for a military career, how did you choose a different career? Tragedies, corruption and misdeeds have occurred in all human endeavors.
I hopoe you didn't decide to become a priest. Given the history of slavery in the US, would it have been possible for you to enter politics in any way?
Meanwhile, if you were deeply disturbed by My Lai, I would have expected you to have abandoned your military aspirations after learning about Dresden and of course, the all time favorites, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
To continue to sell his present plan (halt the escalation and implement a phased redeployment of American forces from Iraq) to the American people would be to ignore the advise of these two realistic, brave men.
I agree with bro. Komack here. So does journalist Woodward. I read two of his books on Bush and the Bush administration; and the two things I gout of it about Powell, first, was that he was the consumate military person: loyal to a fought, refusing to play the politics and not speaking against the Bush administration, at least not in public.
But that's not say he was a wimp or a patsy. According to Woodward-- and I haven't read anything that disagrees with this-- only Powell who had the nerve to question and disagree with Donald Rumsfeld, Bush's Secretary of Defense, and close friend of Bush the dad. The two problems were that, first, Bush seemed too idiotic to understand the complexities of issues (especially problems associated with logistics on the ground or the different factions in Iraq). Second, Bush, competitive with his dad, wanting to outdo him, wanted to invade and occupy Iraq no matter what Powell said. Rumsfeld accommodated the arrogant Bush's wishes to outshine his dad. So, despite the fact that Powell knew what he was talking about, Bush almost always sided with Rumsfeld. This is why Powell had to go, when Bush was reelected. Powell didn't resign; he was made to feel so unwelcomed that he had to leave.
But Woodward's point, as I remember it, was not to defend Powell but to get us to better understand him within the context of a man who had been and, at the same time, make sure we understood that he wasn't a lackey or wimp but a complex character. in the military just about all of his life.
I think he never should have soiled his excellent reputation by getting involved with Bush in the first place. But then i've neve been in the military.
...cats and dogs living together in sin, it rains frogs, plagues of locust scour the Earth, Monkeys fly out of my ***, Western civilization falls and the apocalyspe draws nigh. LOL.
Geez D, co-sign Riykah, but drama much?
I jest - keep bringing the conservative viewpoint - it challenges us all to better hone our own viewpoints.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/interviews/armitage.html
"So you weigh it. Had he left, do you think that would have stopped the war? No. I don't think anyone thinks that. The Congress had voted in October, long before the secretary gave his U.N. speech. The Congress voted not too long before the president gave his State of the Union speech. ... I don't think a resignation of one or two members of the administration would have necessarily changed that tide. ..."
Douglas Feith has been making the rounds lately b/c of his new book and he made the point on NPR about the level of in fighting in this administration and the contempt some members had for others.
I think this along with the quote from Dick illustrates what may have gone through Powell's head--he knew if he resigned the war would still happen so maybe he thought it better to stay to mitigate some of the damage and chaos that by his own experience he knew was coming.
Obviously we will never know one way or the other if his resignation would have made a difference, but it's fair to assume that the "wonder twins" Che/Rum would never have given up on invading Iraq.
==================================
This statement is so wrong on so many levels, if it was so sad, it might possibly be laughable.
Truly pathetic that this person actually believes what he just wrote."
Squarepeg, it might be laughable if it was NOT true. I wrote it, and I stand by it. As I said, my personal opinion of Colin Powell is irrelevant. What is at issue is his political capital and there is not one human being walking this Earth at this point who has more political capital than Colin Powell. That's no opinion or blief, but FACT. There is not one opinion poll that disputes it. Consistently, Colin Powell is ranked as the single endorsement that could move a decisive percentage of the electorate.
Fine, take issue with my comparison of Moses and Joshua, but to deny that Colin Powell would not move voters, particularly white men, in mass to Obama is most certainly laughable.
Yeah he's a certified war hero. But I'm pretty convinced he's damaged by what he had to endure.
Whatever his mental/emotional/spiritual state, Teflon John doesn't seem to know much about anything, but he's not being taken to task for his ignorance.
For now, anyway.
I don't believe that his open support of Obama is just about him being proud of a capable African American candidate.
D-
I have a feeling this association is about more than the white male vote.
Obama was adamant about the war and the future implications of it. Hopefully, he and Powell are working together to advert another military blunder.
Exactly what "capital" does Colin Powell possess other than in the minds of militaristic, gung-hung war chickenhawks?
I would dare say that the majority of posters to this blog in addition to informed African-Americans would differ with your assessment. So I am glad that you cleared that up when you indicated that white men would follow him.
Isn't that how we got in this mess in the first place, because white men who seem to think that the world revolves around their every wont, that every place in this world should try to emulate them in all their superiority, and when shunned and actually told that everyone does not want to be like them, respond in the only way they can in their war-like, chest-beating, desire to make everyone capitulate to their power.
Yes, unfortunately, you probably are correct as we have seen this borne out in the policies that continue to sink this country into a downward spiral. Have any of these chauvinistic white males ever read history and what happened to Rome due to hubris, arrogance and the belief that the bully will win every time?
I thought not or more accurately, as is probably more relevant they don't care, after all, we're America and we can whup anybody!
Obama apparently believes Powell has capital as he consults with him regarding foreign policy matters.
Think? Do you think the last 5 centuries have been an interminable staged reality-show? The world has revolved around their every want! Ain't no thinking about it.
Yes, history will eventually repeat itself; this empire will fall (China will see to that), but for now, they are still in command of the chess board we call the world, and Obama has to figure out a way to beat them at their game. If Colin Powell is willing to lend his hand (blood stained as it may be) to him, then he should take it!
Hell, for all we know, this could be his attempt at redemption.
For my edification, please provide some tangible examples of this foreign policy assistance from Powell to Obama, please.
Also,
Thank you nmp for telling it like it is, I knew it was in you all the time, you superior man of the world. Excuse me while I swoon.
Let's compare the two:
Obama-first term senator, seat on the Foreign Relations committee.
Powell-Former national security advisor, JCS chairman, and secretary of state. Probably more experience with foreign policy as national security advisor to Reagan than Obama has at this point in his career.
If Obama thinks that Powell isn't knowledgeable in foreign matters, then he's stupid. And if you can't give Powell credit for his experience-whether you like him or not-then you're equally stupid.
Colin Powell stated during an interview that Obama calls him to consult.
I am not in opposition to your feelings regarding Powell. I'm just not as emotional about the situation.
Regardless to the way some may feel about him and his involvement in the Iraq invasion, he is formittable and sought after for his experience.
I wouldn't be surprised if he is given a cabinet position in an Obama whitehouse.
Must of miss that one.
For all his so-called experience, didn't work too well did it?
For the third time, you are once again putting words not just in my mouth, but now you are presuming to know what Obama thinks. Are you a clarivoyant, ESP, if not then you should know stupid is as stupid does. Didn't your mama teach you that one.
Seriously, there are countless people with as much or more foreign policy experience who are more than qualified and capable to serve in Obama's cabinet that would give him sound advice, and who would be more concerned about the country them concerned with his own inflated ego and dreams of greatness.
Oops.
Hmm... Judge the man entirely on the basis of one event. A lot of us have been judging folks harshly that have done that to Wright. Are we so much more willing to do so to Powell because he worked under the Bush adminstrations?
I am still not convinced that he went on a campaign to Lie to the public and UN about Iraq.
For the record, I'm a Democrat, not a Republican. Not sure about the parties the other posters align. :-)
How many events will it take before it becomes apparent that Powell is just as reckless, slimey, and arrogant as his other co-workers in this dehumanizing enterprise?
How many more events will it take?
Every time he tries to salvage his reputation another horrid FACT surfaces.
As Secretary of State-not to mention with his military experience-of course Powell would be brought in on any discussion about interrogations, especially if they were taking place on foreign soil. It'd be common sense to include him.
I challenge you to find some documentation that Powell did not raise any objections to the methods of interrogation.
"With recent revelations of Powell's involvement in decision-making regarding the types of torture humans would be subjected to... statements of facts"
What are you referring to? Serious question. Most of us take statements of fact from fellow bloggers with a grain of salt.
Just as an example, go to Google, put in Powell's name along with Mai Lai, Panama or any other conflict he was chosen to investigate and see what comes up.
Don't take my word and you already know this, you won't like what you will find about this "great" man.