




if (typeof(disqus_iframe_css) == 'undefined') {
	disqus_iframe_css = '';
}
if (typeof(disqus_def_name) == 'undefined') {
	disqus_def_name = '';
}
if (typeof(disqus_def_email) == 'undefined') {
	disqus_def_email = '';
}
if (typeof(disqus_skip_auth) == 'undefined') {
	disqus_skip_auth = false;
}
if (typeof(disqus_default_text) == 'undefined') {
	disqus_default_text = 'Type your comment here.';
}

(function(){
	
	var ie = document.uniqueID
		&& document.compatMode
		&& !window.XMLHttpRequest
		&& document.execCommand ;

	try {
		if(!!ie) {
			document.execCommand("BackgroundImageCache", false, true);
		}
	} catch(e) {};
})();

var Dsq = new function() {
	this.container = document.getElementById('dsq-content');
	this.jsonData = {"reactions": [{"body": "Nice analysis of this civil rights issue, from Jack and Jill Political Blog", "author_name": "Ted Eytan", "source_url": "http://www.ubervu.com/conversations/www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/", "id": 853270, "get_service_url": "http://disqus.com/", "title": "", "url": "http://friendfeed.com/e/57a2292d-1bf3-4842-9565-d8a738b25a71#a97c6532-d2b7-4aae-9bd2-ddf951135644", "source": "ubervu", "get_service_name": "unknown", "avatar_url": "http://friendfeed.com/tedeytan/picture?size=large", "author_url": "", "date_created": "1 year ago", "retweets": []}, {"body": "Nice analysis of this civil rights issue, from Jack and Jill Political Blog", "author_name": "Ted Eytan", "source_url": "http://www.ubervu.com/conversations/www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/", "id": 853269, "get_service_url": "http://disqus.com/", "title": "", "url": "http://friendfeed.com/e/d4a50da3-2687-2b28-3e5e-3035ca92d28b#bdfd4d8c-9e3e-42af-9a83-35652fb64011", "source": "ubervu", "get_service_name": "unknown", "avatar_url": "http://friendfeed.com/tedeytan/picture?size=large", "author_url": "", "date_created": "1 year ago", "retweets": []}], "has_more_reactions": false, "users": {"4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a": {"username": "Michelle", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Michelle", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "aeromestiza": {"username": "aeromestiza", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "aeromestiza", "url": "http://disqus.com/aeromestiza/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": 1, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "heartsandflowers": {"username": "heartsandflowers", "tumblr": "actsoffaith", "display_name": "Acts Of Faith Blog", "url": "http://disqus.com/heartsandflowers/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://www.actsoffaithblog.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": 282, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/6/690/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "actsoffaithblog", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "actsoffaithblog", "twitter": "http://twitter.com/ActsofFaithblog", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "evita": {"username": "evita", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "evita", "url": "http://disqus.com/evita/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://blog.evavegadiversity.com/", "remote_domain": null, "points": 454, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/5/3247/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "26fef708e28fd489ebc089782ea82b7e": {"username": "Brian Esser", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Brian Esser", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/26fef708e28fd489ebc089782ea82b7e/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://www.bi-bri.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "rikyrah": {"username": "rikyrah", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "rikyrah", "url": "http://disqus.com/rikyrah/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": 3393, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "CraigHickman": {"username": "CraigHickman", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "CraigHickman", "url": "http://disqus.com/CraigHickman/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://craighickman.blogspot.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": 1692, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/5/2947/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "ca7674498191f49a8a6c3ef33b81ea51": {"username": "Monica", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Monica", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/ca7674498191f49a8a6c3ef33b81ea51/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "200b12b111a15a1ec02073caaa33378d": {"username": "oh.", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "oh.", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/200b12b111a15a1ec02073caaa33378d/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "e39ba1c943c74ee9bd3befec93a169d5": {"username": "kp", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "kp", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/e39ba1c943c74ee9bd3befec93a169d5/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "2ff0cf42b5a639d58a26d9de9e707a91": {"username": "Oliver", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Oliver", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/2ff0cf42b5a639d58a26d9de9e707a91/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "ibeching": {"username": "ibeching", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "ibeching", "url": "http://disqus.com/ibeching/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "www.ibeching.tumblr.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": 21, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/22381/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83": {"username": "Liza Diamond", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Liza Diamond", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://www.seesaw.typepad.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "d6755b31010b50fc47eac9ee8b3bb319": {"username": "T.", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "T.", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/d6755b31010b50fc47eac9ee8b3bb319/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "bigassbelle": {"username": "bigassbelle", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "bigassbelle", "url": "http://disqus.com/bigassbelle/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": 66, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "B_Serious": {"username": "B_Serious", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "B-Serious", "url": "http://disqus.com/B_Serious/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": 53, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "JonPincus": {"username": "JonPincus", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "jon", "url": "http://disqus.com/JonPincus/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://talesfromthe.net/jon", "remote_domain": null, "points": 1, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/23558/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "d96a7fa7ae15e0cc9b61c9a78beff71c": {"username": "brklyngrl", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "brklyngrl", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/d96a7fa7ae15e0cc9b61c9a78beff71c/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "kalagenesis": {"username": "kalagenesis", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "kalagenesis", "url": "http://disqus.com/kalagenesis/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://www.kalanation.blogspot.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": 83, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/7/5425/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "Lilytiger": {"username": "Lilytiger", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Lilytiger", "url": "http://disqus.com/Lilytiger/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": 366, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/8/3435/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "9c303acec6970a11c48eacffef4d32c4": {"username": "patatsea", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "patatsea", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/9c303acec6970a11c48eacffef4d32c4/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5": {"username": "whiterosebuddy", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "whiterosebuddy", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "Sombody_took_my_username": {"username": "Sombody_took_my_username", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "TruthSeeker", "url": "http://disqus.com/Sombody_took_my_username/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": 817, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/5/2951/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "699a0ed7291c19435029056b684bd583": {"username": "anonymous", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "anonymous", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/699a0ed7291c19435029056b684bd583/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "4d5181fc6c785db0af7e6cf72d1a1019": {"username": "adamson", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "adamson", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/4d5181fc6c785db0af7e6cf72d1a1019/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://www.aeonity.com/adamson", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "Val2": {"username": "Val2", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Val", "url": "http://disqus.com/Val2/", "registered": true, "linkedin": "", "blog": "", "remote_domain": null, "points": 1833, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/uploads/users/19/8778/avatar32.jpg", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": true, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}, "347495439b779614db6736642f07b3fa": {"username": "Tami", "tumblr": "", "display_name": "Tami", "url": "http://disqus.com/guest/347495439b779614db6736642f07b3fa/", "registered": false, "linkedin": "", "blog": "http://pinkchocolatesunshine.com", "remote_domain": null, "points": null, "facebook": "", "avatar": "http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar32.png", "delicious": "", "is_remote": false, "verified": false, "flickr": "", "twitter": "", "remote_domain_name": ""}}, "forum": {"use_media": true, "name": "Jack and Jill Politics", "streaming_realtime": false, "url": "jackandjillpolitics", "allow_anon_post": false, "reactions_enabled": true, "reply_position": 1, "show_avatar": true, "allow_anon_votes": false, "disqus_auth_disabled": false}, "realtime_enabled": false, "request": {"username": "", "is_global_moderator": false, "sharing": {}, "sort": 4, "forum": "jackandjillpolitics", "is_initial_load": true, "is_authenticated": false, "timestamp": "2009-12-09_19:10:48", "remote_domain": "", "page": 1, "is_moderator": false, "display_username": "", "points": null, "subscribe_on_post": 2, "moderator_can_edit": false, "is_remote": false, "is_verified": false, "missing_perm": "login"}, "realtime_paused": false, "posts": {"3809793": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "I remain perplexed by \"marriage equality movement activists\" who didn't jump on the Lawrence decision. <br><br>It's been 5 years.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_14:37:05", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844102": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "<i>One of the other challenges with this issue is that we have individuals who have chosen to claim an identity based on a conduct.</i><br><br>You've got it exactly backward. Without exception, every single gay/lesbian person I know ~ and there have been many throughout the years ~ knew they were gay long before they ever had a sexual experience. The identity preceded the conduct.<br><br>Maybe I'm misunderstanding you . . .", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:47:02", "killed": false, "user_key": "bigassbelle", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 35, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843330, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844111": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "whiterosebuddy,<br><br>In this instance, yes, conduct does not necessarily equal identity.  But again, the state cannot discriminate against conduct just because it wants to.  It must have a reason.  And, in the case of homosexual conduct, that reason must be rationally based in some government interest.<br><br>The matter of homosexual conduct falls under the Due Process clause of the 14h Amendment.  Meaning, the state cannot treat similarly situated people disimilarly.<br><br>As CraigHickman already noted, the case of <i>Lawrence v. Texas</i> addresses this point as it relates to homosexual conduct.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:48:00", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 9, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843330, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844625": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "First of all most people engage in sex in the confines of a marriage,a relationship, or partnership.The homos are the same as sexual predators,deviant,perverts.Why do most people discuss their sexuality among close friends or like mined people.Gays flaunt their sexuality in your face any time no discretion,shame,reserve and they wonder why we will fight them and make sure they stay in the closet.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_18:33:47", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 3, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844348, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844627": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Perhaps I am not expressing myself clearly.<br><br>There are numerous behaviors that folks engage in...but they do not claim those behaviors as their identity as if that is the sum total of who and what they are.  Folks just do not do that, because they recognize that is simply something they DO.  Even professional athletes don't claim their sport as their identity, nor do lawyers claim their profession as their identity..it is something that they DO not who they ARE.<br><br>No individual is the sum total of their sexual behavior.  What a person does sexually is not an identity. Prostitutes and whores are people...not just commercial sex workers. <br><br>The entire concept simply does not work for folks to go around claiming that as some immutable trait...behaviors/conduct is not an identity it is a conscious choice to engage in a specific act or set of actions.  <br><br>It is not an identity.  If we use the logic of behavior as some special right to privileges, then we would have rights for drunks, whores, prostitutes, plumbers, shipbuilders etc.  We do not grant rights based on behaviors.<br><br>There are no consitutional rights based on a set of behaviors.  Race is not a behavior.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_18:33:49", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 34, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844102, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3861013": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Michelle regarding:<br><br>\"The more I hear and read about this person's \"concerns\" the more I get a sense that he himself is kind of obsessed in a sort of not-okay way. It's as if he himself can't think about access to the internet without feeling like there will be some irresistable compulsion to look at porn .... and then projecting his own obsession on others and then acting all moralistic about it.\"<br><br>----<br><br>Your 'concerns' are about attacking the messenger as having some problem is very common to deflect from the issues which are being presented in a logical cogent manner. The morals issue you raise is more about the topic i.e. CPL raised the church as an issue.  I addressed the topic as set forth.<br><br>Furthermore, there is no unhealthy obession with sex.  The term homosexual has no other connonation than sex. It does not have a relationship connotation.  So, if that is the issue than sex will be discussed.<br><br>What you appear to be misconstruing is the focus on the topic at hand rather than going on tangents which have nothing to do with the core issues.  Focusing on the topic without going on tangents is not an obession.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_10:45:39", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851122, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3850775": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Those \"quack\" scientists are the same ones who acknowledge the genetic problems with siblings procreating.    If you accept their science in that respect, why do you reject it in the case of homosexuality?<br><blockquote><i>Beware the GAY MOVEMENT IS A STRONG ARM MILITANT RACIST MOVEMENT THAT ONLY CARES ABOUT ITSELF NOT SOCIETY DEFINITELY NOT BLACK PEOPLE</i></blockquote><br>There are black gays.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:27:27", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842598, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3888154": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Gays are no big deal if they respect other people they would get further", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_20:35:41", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3874621, "depth": 8, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3842598": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Until someone can articulate why people who want to marry is the same as people just wanting to survive,I think this whole debate is a farce.Gay is a choice.Some frauds in the media are now trying to say that people are born with this.These are quack scientist and doctors putting this out because they are bought off by the gay movement.I think it is so disrespectful for the gays to not only compare their cause to our struggle,but to assume we would compromise our faith,values and beliefs for them if they use the so called Civil Rights buzzword.They are misinformed.The so called Civil rights movement was debated on relevance to the Black community outside the South and still is debated in our community.So to think they could just use the term and we would just shuffle our feet and go along with it was crazy.They did not even bother to ask us for their support.They just intimidate key people in the community into supporting them.Beware the GAY MOVEMENT IS A STRONG ARM MILITANT RACIST MOVEMENT THAT ONLY CARES ABOUT ITSELF NOT SOCIETY DEFINITELY NOT BLACK PEOPLE", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:04:13", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 11, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 1, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3852338": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "the slave catchers...all of them.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_23:20:19", "killed": false, "user_key": "rikyrah", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851730, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3880499": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Michelle,<br>The only actions you see is are posting a reasoned argument. What you are/have been attempting to do is fine a motivation or intent beyond the argument.<br><br>This comes across as disingenuous because it attacks the messenger not the topic. Because you may have a motivation or intent beyond a well reasoned argument does not mean that is universally so.<br><br>I enjoy polemics.  You appear to want to find convenient labels and categories to impugn the messenger thus the message lacks credit. Your actions are similiar to the GOP who tried to kill Obama with his associations because they had no valid opposition in terms of policies. They therefore tried to impute motive and nefarious intent where there was none.<br><br>You are guilty of that here. Your response to truthseeker about me is the same as the nasty e mail campaign about Obama being a muslim. It is completely false and has no basis in fact and it's sole purpose is to discredit the messenger.<br><br>I think you may wish to ask why that is your need not try to impose your needs/motivates on others.<br><br>I am dealing with facts and data...you are seeking to attribute motivate where there is none.<br><br>In other words, there is nothing for you to be 'on to'.  Either you can rebut the arugment with facts or you can't.  But your intent to smear me with inference, innuendo and speculation is a poor substitute for a substantative analysis of the issue.<br><br>What speaks loudest to me is your inability to raise a cogent rational argument for the position you hold. And a far greater need to attack the messenger as some sort of justification for that shortcoming.<br><br>It is completely ineffective. Because I am on to the fact that you have nothing to support your position but emotions and inflammatory words in hopes of smearing the message as you can't refute the message.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_13:13:23", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3865522, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3860830": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "this is a great post!<br><br>thanks B-serious, for this thorough treatment.  i don't have a legal background so it was really enlightening", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_10:29:38", "killed": false, "user_key": "ibeching", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843423": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Craig - love ya. And I guess it goes to show that there are all different ways gay people feel about their origins. I definately chose to be queer. I remember the moment. It just made sense on a whole lot of levels. I was twenty and just didn't want to live the \"normal\" life I was raised for. Being queer in the seventies meant being radical, political, part of a community of activists, breaking with patriarchal conditioning, spending a lot of time figuring out theory and strategies, learning and caring about queer history, and frankly, making history. It was so much fun. And there were so many smart  women to go out with.<br><br>Yeah, it was a choice for me. Guys were ok, I liked them as boyfriends, but the whole gestalt of being queer was irrisistible. I know people find that hard to believe nowadays, but it's my truth. It was exciting. Good times, good times.<br><br>I never wanted to get married. I still don't. I just don't want to have my financial and legal rights accorded to me (or not) because of my marital status. I'm sure my heterosexual and unmarried friends feel the same.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_16:34:25", "killed": false, "user_key": "313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843011, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3852862": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "That was a good one.  Thanks.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_00:19:10", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851730, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851328": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "A couple of points:<br><br><i>What do people expect to gain from protesting on Nov. 5th that they couldn\u2019t have secured through better organization on November 3rd?</i><br><br>The protests are a reaction to the fact that there *wasn't* better organization in October and early November.  Jasmine Beach-Ferrara\u2019s <a href=\"http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2008/11/why_we_lost_in_california_an_a.php\" rel=\"nofollow\">Why We Lost in California: An Analysis of \u201cNo on 8\u2033 Field Strategies</a> on The Democratic Strategist is a well-done strategic analysis of the Prop 8 campaign. <br><br>There's been a lot of discussion in the LGBTQ community about this, and the response from a lot of people is that they weren't invited to get involved in the \"No on 8\" campaign in any meaningful way beyind giving money or calling up the 'friendlies' who were already likely to support the bill, for example.  <br><br>Rex Wockner\u2019s <a href=\"http://wockner.blogspot.com/2008/11/stonewall-20-gay-activism-40.html\" rel=\"nofollow\">Stonewall 2.0? Gay Activism 4.0?</a>  from Tuesday has some good historical context of this.  <br><br><i>For example: Comparing gay marriage to Loving v. Virginia is an emotional tactic. </i><br><br>It may be an emotional tactic; it's also important for legal purposes, because Loving v. Virginia explicitly states \"Marriage is one of the \"basic civil rights of man,\" fundamental to our very existence and survival.\"  This lays the basis for a challenge to Prop 8 under the 14th Amendment's Equal Protection Clause.  From a legal perspective, your options A and B aren't mutually exclusive.  And for that matter, organizing and legal options aren't exclusive either.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:30:05", "killed": false, "user_key": "JonPincus", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845185": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "The question is whether the law overreaches.  Thus, the burden falls upon the State to show that it does not.  As far as I know, there is no stated rationale for Prop 8 as it exists today.  The rationale could be one of many things, but it has not yet been stated.<br><br>as for the Due Process Clause:<br><br>Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment says:<br><br>\"No State shall . . . deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. . . \"<br><br>The Court relied on the Due Process Clause in <i>Lawrence v. Texas</i>:<br><br><i>\"The present case (<i>Lawrence</i>) does not involve minors.  It does not involve persons who might be injured or coerced or who are situated in relationships where consent might not easily be refused.  It does not involve public conduct or prostitution.  It does not invovle whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.  The case does involve two adults who, with full and mutual consent from each other, engaged in sexual practices common to a homosexual lifestyle.  The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives.  <b>The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime.  Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.  'It is a promise of the Constitution that there is a realm of personal liberty which the government may not enter.'  The Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual.\"</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br> . . . The following practically begs for a gay marriage challenge:<br><br><i>\"Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in <b>its manifold possibilities,</b> they might have been more specific.  They did not presume to have this insight.  <b>They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress.  As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.\"</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br>The Court is at least inviting this discussion of gay marriage.  It at least acknowledges the right for gay relationships to exist.  <br><br>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships . . . then I see no reason why gay marriage (the logical progression of a relationship) should be treated any differently as a liberty protected by the Due Process Clause than heterosexual marriage.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_19:43:37", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 5, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844394, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851331": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I ought to know, since Kenji was in the a capella group I started in college, but I can't remember if his mother is Japanese. I think both of his parents are, if I recall correctly.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:30:23", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851179, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3861062": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "The statements are not objections. They are rather a reasoned opposition on a topic that others are unable to rebut factually and which has not been derailed by emotional tangents.<br><br>In short, those who advocate for this issue have not once been able to present an articulate cogent argument that is holds up to a factual well-reasoned rebut.<br><br>The inability to prevail in an argument does not mean the opposing argument is unhealthy or obsessive.<br><br>What it means is that your position is flawed and cannot withstand well thought out logical arguments.<br><br>After all, I stated long ago that I supported civil unions.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_10:49:17", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 11, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851749, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3889225": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Thanks Val<br><br>Re: your interest and having a new JJP post -- maybe you should email this comment and suggestion to the JJP site owners ... <br><br>I'm thinking about what you wrote and would be interested in seeing a bigger discussion. <br><br>I don't have any answers right now, but maybe discussion here on a broader scale could pull some useful practical something out into view.<br><br>That is -- IF the discussion isn't hijacked by extremism from either side<br><br> (meaning no \"marriage or bust\" rigidity or other drama from that side OR any sort of disrespectful statements/arguments about gay people being wrong in any way - and I would have to add being wrong as parents of children to that after what I have seen)  <br><br>I wonder if there could be a JJP post focused on what you are asking without getting derailed<br><br>Something where participants are trying to open up practical ideas and creativity and discussion.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_22:04:16", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3887733, "depth": 12, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3861581": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "The biggest homophobes live in the tiniest closets.<br><br>And protest too much.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_11:10:50", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3861091, "depth": 9, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3850837": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "I could be wrong...but deep down, I don't think Obama doesn't give a damn if gays MARRY.    I think he chose his position because it wouldn't activate the anti-gay movement.    In that respect, it's smart strategy.    The question for the movement, is do you want the rights, or do you want the angst?     Obama seems to have an angst free strategy....<br><br>However, with the demonstrations and anger that's out there now,  it will have the anti-gay movement primed for a fight....like disturbing a wasps nest.   You can be sure when Obama makes his move, they'll fight him every step of the way.....Be ready.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:35:51", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 4, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842986, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851352": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "I suspect you are right on all accounts.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:32:12", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850837, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3823198": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "The second I hear someone claim sexuality is a choice, anything else they have to say goes in one ear and out the other as they are uninformed and uneducated.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_14:43:39", "killed": false, "user_key": "26fef708e28fd489ebc089782ea82b7e", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 8, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844192": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "\"Gay is a choice\" you pronounce with great authority. And you know that how? Your proof is what? You must not actually know any gays. i think you've got one of those ID 10 T errors going on with your thinking . . .<br><br>perhaps Civil Rights Movement is considered the fight for black equality in the middle of the last century, but that is not / was not the only effort for civil rights in this country. how'd we end up with this fight over who's the biggest victim? it's just crazy. wrong is wrong. it doesn't take away from the black civil rights movement to try to win civil rights for gays.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:55:18", "killed": false, "user_key": "bigassbelle", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842598, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3861091": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Homosexuals used accusations against others to deflect from their completely narcissitic views when they run up against facts that dispel all the myths and fallacies they use to support their positions on aberrant sexual conduct.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_10:51:04", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851879, "depth": 8, "points": 1, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851879": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "The biggest homophobes live in the tiniest closets.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_22:23:10", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 4, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851497, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3880552": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "The funny thing about the 'branding' is that there position they advocate from is that the conduct is normal...so why then fling that accusation if the conduct is acceptable and appropriate?<br><br>Why does anyone think the ultimate put down of an opposing argument is to call them 'gay'?<br><br>It is twisted and warped psychology...also known as self-hate.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_13:16:42", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3871537, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3893356": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Michelle, I will respond up thread later today. I have a few appointments this morning before my time is my own.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-19_08:11:55", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3882265, "depth": 11, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3850862": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Like I said you people cant control your impulses that is why the majority of people have thought this thing out and the answer is NO TO GAY MARRIAGE.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:39:52", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845372, "depth": 5, "points": 1, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3887733": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Michelle -- virtual hugs.  <br><br>What can we do to level the playing field?  That is what I want to do.  I want equality for all.  I will stand with you and fight the same as I did for Obama.  <br><br>Equal rights for couples under civil unions.  No discrimination for anyone under any circumstances and repeal DOMA.  <br><br>What can I/we do?  Where do we begin because I don't know.  Educate me.  A new JJP post regarding actionable steps on this matter would be appreciated.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_19:59:56", "killed": false, "user_key": "Val2", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 3, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3882265, "depth": 11, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851392": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "B-serious, you are putting the meat on all of the bones I've thrown into this discussion over several threads.<br><br>I have been speaking from gut and from memory, so I didn't have the case law and the language to back up my remarks.<br><br>I was simply too tired (or too jaded) to do the work that you have done nor do I think I could have put it together as well as you have anyway.<br><br>Thank you for taking the ball and running with it.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:36:25", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845185, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845251": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "whiterosebuddy,<br><br>My mistake, I should not have used the phrase, \"similarly situated people disimilarly.\"  That is actually an equal protection/identity argument.  However, the reasoning still applies to conduct.<br><br>As to your other point, there are health reasons for not allowing brother and sister/parent and offspring to marry (small genetic pool, resulting in higher chance of birth defects, etc.).  As I said before, arguments for a rational basis will find more success in more conservative jurisdictions than liberal . . . that's where the politics meets the law.  And that's where both sides just agree to disagree and fight it out in court.<br><br>But, back to the Due Process issue . . . I posted the following in response to your post below, but it still applies here as well:<br><br>Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment says:<br><br>\"No State shall . . . deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. . . \"<br><br>The Court relied on the Due Process Clause in <i>Lawrence v. Texas</i>:<br><br><i>\"The present case (<i>Lawrence</i>) does not involve minors.  It does not involve persons who might be injured or coerced or who are situated in relationships where consent might not easily be refused.  It does not involve public conduct or prostitution.  It does not invovle whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.  The case does involve two adults who, with full and mutual consent from each other, engaged in sexual practices common to a homosexual lifestyle.  The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives.  <b>The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime.  Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.  'It is a promise of the Constitution that there is a realm of personal liberty which the government may not enter.'  The Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual.\"</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br> . . . The following practically begs for a gay marriage challenge:<br><br><i>\"Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in <b>its manifold possibilities,</b> they might have been more specific.  They did not presume to have this insight.  <b>They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress.  As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.\"</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br>The Court is at least inviting this discussion of gay marriage.  It at least acknowledges the right for gay relationships to exist.  <br><br>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships . . . then I see no reason why gay marriage (the logical progression of a relationship) should be treated any differently as a liberty protected by the Due Process Clause than heterosexual marriage.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_19:52:08", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 7, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844484, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843226": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "But that would employ strategy. There has been so little, if any, of that, as you pointed out so well.<br><br>Within 6 months of Lawrence, the \"activists\" should've had a gay marriage case before the Supreme Court.<br><br>But they didn't.<br><br>I think the answer goes to fear and shame, but I'm hard-pressed to flesh that out right now.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_16:11:46", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842541, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3871258": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Sometimes I'm a little slow on the uptake.  Why aren't civil unions acceptable?  Same-sex couples  would have the same rights as married spouses, tax breaks, property rights, adoption rights (in CA), etc.?<br><br>I don't know anyone (in their right mind) who opposes civil union.  <br><br>However,if someone values marriage primarily as a religious union in the eyes of God, a sanctified sacrament that is a testament of faith, with state issues such as property ownership coming secondary, they are not going to support gay marriage.<br><br>I don't disagree with that.  Just as you wouldn't want someone imposing their religious beliefs on you, you can't impose your disregard for their belief of them.<br><br>Finally, I know I sound like Sean Hannity (ugh) but laws prohibiting same-sex marriages also prohibited sibling marriage and polygamy.  Are you prepared to lift the bans on those marriages also.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_21:56:00", "killed": false, "user_key": "ca7674498191f49a8a6c3ef33b81ea51", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3897130": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I appreciate the practical strategies offered in the main post, and quite frankly I'm  disgusted by the level of hatred expressed by others in the responses (did i read BLOODSHED before gay marriage?!?!? i think it's time to report a terrorist threat). I've created a video blog in response to the majority of posts on the internet that frame this as an issue between gay white men and straight black people, which many of us know is highly problematic for obvious reasons. please view, comment and share:<br><a href=\"http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=46733313\" rel=\"nofollow\">http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids....</a>", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-19_12:30:57", "killed": false, "user_key": "aeromestiza", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3860830, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851122": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "<blockquote><i>If you're reducing sex to simply a behaviour, rather than an identity....then how can you strongly identify as heterosexual and draw distinctions between yourself and homosexuals, and insist you deserve special considerations within the law based on your heterosexual behaviour? Is your heterosexual behaviour the \"sum total\" of who you are?</i></blockquote><br><br>I am not following this discussion closely because quite frankly the heterosexism/homophobia on display here is starting to wear down my tolerance. So Truthseeker, please forgive me if I am off topic in this response.<br><br>But -- that statement/those questions from you seem to mesh with something my girlfriend and I talked about right before I turned on the computer.<br><br>I was saying that I am starting to get a strong sense that some of the anti-gay arguments out there have what I would consider to be an unhealthy obsession with sex -- that is, an unhealthy and misdirected obsession with what other people do with our private parts etc.<br><br>This isn't exact, but to try to describe it a little bit more ... the feeling I'm getting about this unhealthy sex/genital-obsession kind of reminds me of the feeling I get about one of the local politicians where I live. The man is positively obsessed with the possibility that library patrons are using public computers for porn viewing as some sort of widespread epidemic (which in terms of reality of what people use the computers for, for real, is actually pretty insane). <br><br>The more I hear and read about this person's \"concerns\" the more I get a sense that he himself is kind of obsessed in a sort of not-okay way. It's as if he himself can't think about access to the internet without feeling like there will be some irresistable compulsion to look at porn .... and then projecting his own obsession on others and then acting all moralistic about it.<br><br>Again, this is by no means an analogy more generally to the topic under discussion (to be clear, I am not equating gay sex with porn, nor am I suggesting that all these arguments come from a space of gay people in denial ... and here's hoping people can get the nuances and subtlety of what I am actually trying to communicate with this story). <br><br>It's more a way for me to try to further describe my increasing sense that there is something unhealthy, obsessive and projecting-own-obsession-onto-others about some of the anti-gay arguments I've been seeing out there.<br><br>I hope this makes sense outside the discussions going on in my house, that I am articulating at least somewhat clearly what I am trying to name.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:05:09", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 30, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850725, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3880623": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Thanks Val for hearing the arguments as presented. I indeed felt slammed yet knew I had agreed with the core issue.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_13:20:00", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3867343, "depth": 8, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3842736": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "whitrosebuddy,<br><br>To answer your question, I came to my conclusion, in part, because I view the U.S. Constitution as a living, breathing document.  Therefore, I view same-sex marriage as being within the spirit of the Due Process Clause to the 14th Amendment.  I see same-sex marriage as the logical extension of the very same fundamental rights of self-determination that are granted to heterosexual couples (i.e., marriage, education, child rearing, etc.)  Proof of an immutable trait is not necessary in my book (though, depending on the legal argument, it could very well be necessary for the Supreme Court).<br><br>Regarding your second point, I admit that this is a question of fact to be fought out in the courts.  Although I would say that, for the sake of argument, I think a case could be made for strict scrutiny even without proof of an immutable characteristic.  It would be tricky, but I think it would probably rely on drawing parallels between sexual orientation/preference and religion (people can and often do change their religion, yet religion is treated as a suspect classification).<br><br>As to your third point, legal discrimination against conduct still needs to serve a valid governmental objective/purpose.  The Constitution doesn't grant me the \"right\" to eat a grilled-cheese sandwich, but the state better have a valid governmental interest if they're going to take that \"right\" away from me.  Laws against incest, polygamy, domestic abuse, etc., have clear governmental interests in the general health and well-being of the citizenry.<br><br>To the best of my knowledge, the state need only a rational basis to discriminate against homosexual conduct.  This is a low standard that I think often lies at the mercy of the political whims of the court.  More conservative courts seem more willing to find a \"rational basis\" whereas more progressive courts do not.<br><br>These are some of the technical reasons behind my support of same-sex marriage.  I have other reasons as well that are based in my personal beliefs and understanding on this issue.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:18:14", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 9, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3823899, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3850931": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "you're right. it only matters when folks are trying to use your \"choice\" as reason to deny you basic civil rights.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:47:19", "killed": false, "user_key": "bigassbelle", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850748, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3850932": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I can see you've thought, in a very limited bandwith....<br><br>All your conclusions seem based on preconceived prejudices.   There's nothing new....no new ideas.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:47:21", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850862, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845310": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "<i>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships </i><br><br>sorry . . . swap \"heterosexual relationships\" and \"homosexual relationships\" in that sentence.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_19:58:33", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845185, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851456": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "<i>The question for the movement, is do you want the rights, or do you want the angst? Obama seems to have an angst free strategy....&lt;?i&gt;<br><br><b>Precisely</b><br><br>(and you know what, I wonder if the gay rights movement will prefer to choose the angst -- people seem real attached to that from what I am seeing.)</i>", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:42:23", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850837, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845319": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "<i>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships </i><br><br>sorry . . . swap \"heterosexual relationships\" and \"homosexual relationships\" in that sentence.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_19:59:22", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845251, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844301": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "exactly. thank you anonymous . . .", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_18:03:47", "killed": false, "user_key": "bigassbelle", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842986, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3867343": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Whiterosebuddy.  I get what you are saying and you are on point.  You are getting slammed when you don't deserve to be.   You have written on this topic several times on several posts and not once did I read anything where you said you condemned homosexuality.  You did provide the counter arguments to many points and if most would step back and look at it objectively would see it is very insightful.<br><br>We are fighting the wrong battle people.  I understand that this is an emotional issue but you are missing the point.  That is why this thing has gone on for so long.  Just like the majority of Americans, Whiterosebuddy has repeatedly said she supports civil unions.  <br><br>This is something we ALL/or most of us can support and isn't that the goal?  Can't we all work to push through an agenda that ensures that couples in same sex relationships/civil unions get equal rights under the law?  Can't we agree that DOMA is WRONG and it needs to be repealed or is it more important for everyone to say that they no longer believe marriage is between a man and a woman?  <br><br>That is why this issue is at a stand still.  We should be more focused on everyone using their energies, money and time into making sure equality is a moral imperative for gays and lesbians and that NONE of our laws discriminate in any way against any group.<br><br>Instead, the focus is on Whiterosebuddy and the fact that she pointed out that sexual conduct is a behavior (choice) and not who you are (genetic).  You lost sight of the fact that she has consistently said she is willing to stand with you to support civil unions and that EVERYBODY deserves the same equal rights . . . . . this is one of the main reasons why this issue is still in stalemate . . . . . we are fighting the wrong battle. <br><br>Ya'll can bash me too but that is alright.  I am grown and i'll take it for a little while.  Because I have nothing but love for everyone here on JJP.  Now when we decide to put our heads together and figure out a way to take this thing to another level (completely repeal DOMA, get the states behind Civil Unions and making sure it includes equal rights for all) let me know.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_16:41:49", "killed": false, "user_key": "Val2", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 10, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3861062, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3871440": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "That is a lie I often see homo people openly talk about sex no matter if children are around or not.Their sexuality is their total identity.This is going to cause a violent backlash if they keep insisting on pushing their agenda down every ones neck.Look at MTV/VH1 SOME TIME WHEN THEY TRY TO NORMALIZE THEIR BEHAVIOR.NEXT TO THE NORMAL PEOPLE THEY ALWAYS BRING UP SEX OR INTIMACY.REGULAR PEOPLE ENGAGE EACH OTHER ON MANY LEVELS!!!!!!GAYS IT IS ALL ABOUT THEM AND THEIR IMPULSES!!!!!!SO I SAY YES TO THE PROP,NO GAY MARRIAGE.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_22:11:33", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3861221, "depth": 6, "points": 1, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3855570": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "repost -- ignore", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_06:38:58", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3859675": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "But...<br>Regarding the due process clause...the government is not denying the person or individual the right to pursue etc...what the government is doing is prohibiting CONDUCT of the individual because sex is something you DO not who you are.<br><br>That individual has the right to marry like all other individuals in this society the opposite sex. So as human beings they are not being discriminated against.<br><br>However, the government does prohibit specific conduct...they prohibit marriage between brother/sister, parent/offspring as well as polygamy and bestiality.<br><br>Conduct and behavior are under the governments purview to legally sanction or not.<br><br>Lawrence found no fundamental right nor fundamental liberty it failed to recognize a fundamental right to sexual privacy and it did not conclude an evern more general right to engage in private sexual conduct would be a fundamental right.<br><br>The essence of Lawrence is that the conduct cannot be criminalized.  Not that there is some fundamental constitutional right to sexual privacy.<br><br><br><br>Had it done so it would open the door to pedophilia.<br><br>Had it done so it would still not provide a challenge to marriage as the institution and it's benefits is not about private sexual conduct but about the benefits to society to have children raised with two parents and to have society not bear the financial responsibility. There is no sexual privacy right granted under the institution of  marriage.<br><br>You cannot use the institution of marriage as a cover for bigamy or polygamy.<br><br>Your due process argument appears to not make a distinction between the government not being able to deprive an individual vs. the government clearly having the right to make laws against specific conduct.<br><br>I think this happens because folks are confusing conduct with identity.  Behaviors are what individuals do, and the government has always had the right to legislate against behaviors and encourage specific acts based on social policy BUT.<br><br>What homosexuals have tried to do is claim a sexual behavior as an identity.   What you do is not who you are. <br><br> Nor should there be a special class or group designated or granted privileges based on their conduct.  Are we going to grant siblings a special right based on their conduct?<br><br>Your argument is premised on reasoning that sexual behavior or conduct creates a class or group and that is a fundamental error.  What a person does sexually does not create a new class or group.<br><br>There are simply individuals who engage in specific behaviors or conducts, which may or maynot be legal under the law.<br><br>All of those individuals are granted the same fundamental rights under the constitution.<br><br>Marriage cannot be reasoned as a fundamental right based on individual sexual  conduct.  Especially given that the state has no inherent interest in encouraging that conduct.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_08:53:05", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 3, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845251, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3855581": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Thanks for the info.   <br><br>I remember discussing him during law school.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_06:41:04", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851179, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845342": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "You're comparing uncontrolled sexual impulses with being black....implying that if the one is negative and undesirable, then the other is also.<br><br>Sexual impulses ARE natural, as is being black.    Sexual impulses may be mis-directed into controlling, abusive,  violent pathways....but the original impulse - to touch intimately and join with another person, and to self pleasure - is natural.<br><br>It's interesting to note that at one time, blackness was strongly associated with uncontrolled sexual impulses.   It was thought that we did not marry, but engaged in wanton, random couplings.    That belief  was used to dehumanize us.<br><br>Does marriage and commitment make us human, or were we human before that?<br><br>It's interesting to see that you now use that same \"uncontrolled sexual impulses\" argument, applied to gays to dehumanize them.<br><br>Perhaps you feel that if gay relationships are legitimized via marriage, and they are demonstrated to commit via marriage,  then you can no longer use their supposed wantoness to dehumanize them.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:02:59", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843908, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3882213": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "This is a continuation of this thread of discussion starting <a href=\"http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3872623\" rel=\"nofollow\">here, below</a> (moved up because it was at the point where comments start to be so skinny the squash words together): <br><br>Whiterosebuddy, you are writing as if everything I see is my imagination. Again you can try to frame it that way, since rhetoric is what you do and is not reality-grounded. <br><br>But it is true and not my imagination that you yourself publicly made an analogy that I quoted and will quote again:<br><br><i>Your first sexual encounter is no different from the first time you are offered drugs or liquor. You get to decide to engage in that conduct no matter what the gender of the individual is. The probability of that chance being equal is not the issue, the probability of what you choose to do is the issue. Everyone decides with equal chance whether to imbibe, inhale or fornicate. Conduct is always a choice.</i><br><br>and it is also true that your reply to me now included this statement:<br><br><i>It could have been your first taste of ice cream or your first slice of apple pie. The point was simply that when you try it you like it. It is PLEASURABLE not that as you choose to misconstrue it as some 'addictive/compulsive' behavior.</i><br><br>You may not understand how deeply horrific this experience and understanding of sex actually is in my eyes. You may not understand it because you feel it as normal and natural to comprehend and experience sex in this way.<br><br>To me, such a comprehension of sex is ... an abomination. Apparently I am very judgemental about this particular thing, which I didn't know before I got into this discussion.<br><br>And to me the abomination has two layers to it. The addiction one that you are currently backing off of is one of the layers. I think you are backing off of it because I shed light on how ugly it was and publicly embarrassed you to the point where you are backing off of it. I think that the most accurate comparison for you is in truth drugs and alcohol and along those lines. <br><br>This is not the first time you have used that analogy, to my memory -- and I continue to feel that as relevant even if you back off of it now that I have gotten into the implications.<br><br>BUT. Aside from that. I see another layer of this abomination that is -- I realize -- almost worse to me. In both your alcohol/drugs and your ice cream/pie/ metaphor, you are describing sex as an inanimate object, that an individual consumes for her or his pleasure. This is about what category sex is in in your eyes.<br><br>In your metaphor, there are two things: an individual, and some substance that the individual(s) are consuming for his/her pleasure. Those are the things that are in both your metaphors.<br><br>For me, sex is an a different category altogether. It is a form of interaction and communication between real beings.  And this is true whether it is a one-time thing or part of a relationship over time, and whether it is negative or positive interaction/communication. <br><br>To me it is a form of interaction and communication between beings -- NOT individual ego consuming a THING for its own pleasure as if there is no one else who is really involved, or as if the other being involved is only another disconnected individual consuming for him/her self.<br><br>WRB, I can't adequately express to you the horror I feel to think about people treating sex with other beings as if it is something for them to consume for their own individual selves. <br><br>I recognize that this is in fact the dominant culture approach to things. I recognize that the fundamentalist hard-core anti-gay whack-jobs are just basically promoting an understanding of sex that is part and parcel of the larger European/Christian cultural system. <br><br>I just .. I haven't really come in personal contact with someone who so clearly promotes this view before now. You can engage in wordplay all you want, but I now have a sense of how you understand (and experience?) sex and it is to me a horrifically bleak and ugly and outright horrifically damaging way to understand it. <br><br>(I have clearly been sheltered in my life so far in terms of personal interactions and in-depth discussions about these things.)<br><br>Good, bad or somewhere in between, I have always understood and experienced sex as one form of interaction/communication between beings and not some consumable object for the individual egos involved.<br><br>I still think you backed off the addictive substances metaphor because you saw the implications from my comment and realized that you had revealed something that made you look bad. <br><br>But only you know that for sure. The truth is that whatever you do or don't say about that here or elsewhere, reality is reality and somewhere inside yourself you will have that sinking feeling of covering up secrets if that is what you are doing. Words on a blog don't make reality go away.<br><br>But in addition to the addiction issues, the underlying foundational category of your metaphor -- sex as consumable object for an individual -- is itself incredibly horrifying to me.  <br><br>It amazes me that here we are in this discussion and I am supposed to be one of the ones who is \"deviant\" in a bad way because I have sex with a woman, and yet I find your category for sex to be such an abomination that it feels to me like the stuff of nightmares.<br><br>I look around and realize with deep gut-clarity now: oh no, THIS is the society I live in? Where people are treating sex like a consumable object? Where the Christian fundamentalists who are all freaky-repressed about sex and the capitalists who openly advocate for the individual consumption of the sex-object (in ads for example) are all united in their understanding of what this actually is even if they diverge on what do do about or with it?<br><br>And you know what, I see now how all this obsession with what gender the people are is in a marriage or union or whatever, all this angst over the suppose \"gay agenda\" functions to cover up this deeper festering sore in this society: the dominant cultural sickness related to sex, sex as object for the individual's consumption. <br><br>Some would advocate restraint in the consumption, others do not, but you're all in the same horrific disconnected consumption framework nonetheless.<br><br>To me, THAT is sick in itself, and I see -- finally I am getting this part of it -- I see how all this other stuff about the gender of who you have sex with serves to keep that actual festering sore from real critical scrutiny.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_14:45:29", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3867343, "depth": 8, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851497": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "<i>When I said to one of our resident homophobes that s/he doth protest too much, this is exactly what I meant.</i><br><br>I remember that comment! I didn't get what you meant at that point. Thank you for bringing it back in front of me.<br><br>(Apparently I am still catching up in terms of understanding the dynamics of all this  :)  )", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:46:13", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 5, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851246, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3850725": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "There are some problems here....<br><blockquote><i>There are numerous behaviors that folks engage in...but they do not claim those behaviors as their identity as if that is the sum total of who and what they are. Folks just do not do that, because they recognize that is simply something they DO.</i></blockquote><br>If you're reducing sex to simply a behaviour, rather than an identity....then how can you strongly identify as heterosexual and draw distinctions between yourself and homosexuals, and insist you deserve special considerations within the law based on your heterosexual behaviour?   Is your heterosexual behaviour the \"sum total\" of who you are?<br><br>If sexual partner is simply a choice, were you at your first sexual encounter presented with a choice between male and female - from which you chose the female?(assuming you're male).   Was there an exactly equal chance that you could have chosen the male?", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:21:26", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 32, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844627, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843319": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "I do claim that sexuality is a choice. I also respect people who say they have always felt gay and I won't challenge their experience. My children are both vegetarians and have been for their entire lives. They can't stand the idea of eating meat. I happen to love a good barbeque (thanks again, T, for the invite) Do I think my children were born vegetarian? No. Is it genetic? No. Do I respect their right to chose? Certainly. Should they be discriminated against for being vegetarian? No. Should I face discrimination because I chose to be queer? No, it's a righteous choice.<br><br>I am neither uninformed nor uneducated. Au contraire, I've been a lesbian activist and theorist for forty years. On the other hand,  I don't actually care if what I say goes in one of your ears and out the other.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_16:20:56", "killed": false, "user_key": "313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 5, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3823198, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844348": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "<i>Are you insane?So let me get this people dying of aids having gay unprotected sex while the rest of us choose to keep our sexual impulses under control,is just the same as someone who simply is born black?Keep it up next time it will be 99% of African Americans supporting anti gay measures.</i><br><br>I expect you're trolling, but let me say this \"people dying of AIDS\" are hardly limited to individuals having \"gay unprotected sex.\" <br><br>\"While the rest of us choose to keep our sexual impulses under control\" . . . like the child molesters? and married men getting sucked off by some guy in the park bathroom on the way home? and the senators and congressmen getting caught with hookers? that kind of \"under control\"?", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_18:06:22", "killed": false, "user_key": "bigassbelle", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 4, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843908, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3859754": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Your statement is premised on sexual conduct being the basis marriage is sanctioned by the state.  Sexual conduct is not the reason the state provides benefits to the individual. Marriage is more than sexual conduct.  Marriage is granted benefits, by the state, precisely  because it  DOES circumscribes 'due process;  the individual loses and is limited in their constitutional right to pursue life, liberty etc.  <br><br>Because marriage limits that fundamental right, the state has a rational interest in providing incentives for the individual to pursue marriage even though their constitutional due process rights would be limited.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_09:01:27", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845319, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3852030": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I have only known people choose to acknowledge their feelings, or their willingness to live happily and true or in a lie and going through the motions of what others want of you.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_22:41:58", "killed": false, "user_key": "evita", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850748, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843330": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "B-Serious<br><br>One of the other challenges with this issue is that we have individuals who have chosen to claim an identity based on a conduct.  When you talk about immutable trait or birthright this too makes the issue exceedingly irrational. Sex is something an indivdiual does it is not something an individual is. People can choose to steal, liar, steal, murder, dance, sing, act etc.  All of those behaviors are what they do and it is their choice to do them, but none of those are who the individual is.<br><br>Such that language becomes a very real concern when addressing this issue as a matter of rights based on specific conduct.  <br><br>Society has every right to discriminate against behaviors and we do so not just with civil law (speeding) but also we can criminalized the conduct (drunk driving).<br><br>Furthermore, if any individual could prove that they had a genetic predisposition for alcoholism that would not preclude society from making laws against drunk driving. Society still has the right to discriminate against behaviors even if an individual has such a genetic predisposition.<br><br>Lastly, a genetic predisposition, is just that...it is not a foregone conclusion...in other words having the genetic trait for diabetes or alcoholism does not automatically mean that the individual will be a diabetic or alcholic.  That becomes a matter of of choice.<br><br>All of which is to say that the thorny discussion on conduct, immutable trait, makes the samesex marriage agenda even more contentious due to the unwillingness of individuals to acknowledge that sexual behavior is not an identity ..it is something the individual does and that they do choose to engage in.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_16:23:10", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 46, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3855623": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Craig,<br><br>No problem.  Glad to help!", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_06:46:37", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851392, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843848": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "I don't think that homosexuality is a choice...it is exactly like having brown skin; it isn't something you can turn on or off...it isn't a choice.  Because it isn't a choice; you cannot discriminate against people who are homosexual.  I know what the Old Testament says; but I know even better what the New Testament says and as a Christian who believes in Jesus I know I cannot judge my brothers and sisters who are homosexual.  After all, the same bible was used to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that people with brown skin were not human and could be enslaved.   <br> <br>Additionally marriage is supported by religion which I think is a great thing.  But it is only in the last few hundred years that marriage has become the religious event that we know today.  Wedding Cake didn't even enter the lexicon until the late 1600's.  Most \"marriages\" took place in living rooms not in churches.  In the real old time on some occasions the Lord of the manor would \"deflower\" the virgin bride the night before she went to her groom.   The people against gay marriage have built up this mythology around marriage which really never existed before in human civilization.  Marriage is about economics nothing more.  Commoners had their marriages in their living rooms to people their parent's chose for them.  The royals and wealthy married people their parents chose for them in a church because they could pay for them.  The average wedding for most of the 20th Century cost less than $500.00 because most took place at the Justice of the Peace.  The whole \"myth\" of marriage being this sacred institution is hogwash.  50% of marriages end in divorce even those that don't end in divorce (especially in our culture where estranged couples have whole other relationships while still being married) are not examples of healthy relationships.  Hell I know of folks in our class who live in their basement while their wives live upstairs.  But sometimes it is cheaper to keep her...SMILE!<br> <br>Marriage is a civil institution and by laws that already exist should be a civil right for all citizens of our country. You have to go to the \"STATE\" to apply for a marriage license.  When you want to end a marriage you have to go to the \"STATE\" for a decree ending a marriage.  By default marriage is a civil right.  You cannot deny citizens of a civil right.  You can deny them a religious ceremony; but not a civil right.<br><br>We can agree to disagree...but open your  brain and know what your civil rights are so you will understand when someone wants to take them away!", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:16:47", "killed": false, "user_key": "e39ba1c943c74ee9bd3befec93a169d5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 11, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3889931": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "OMG! You didn't use CAPS or exclamation points !!!! in a comment about Teh Gays.<br><br>*music floats in* <br><br>*ding - that's a bell chiming*<br><br>Somewhere in the heavens an angel just got its HS diploma. <br><br>It could have been a college diploma, but you forgot to use punctuation (hint: period and comma MIA)", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_23:08:42", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3888154, "depth": 9, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3855633": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Michelle,<br><br>Thanks.  Glad to see it helps a little.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_06:48:00", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851163, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3882265": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "whiterosebuddy, I am answering this comment above -- <a href=\"http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3882213\" rel=\"nofollow\">right here </a> -- since the comments start to get so skinny at this point that words get squished together...", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_14:48:26", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 5, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3880754, "depth": 10, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3823899": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "B-Serious,<br>I agree with you that there is no strategy for this agenda. I also agree that it is highly emotional and that impedes cogent and rational discussion of the issue. Typically, it disintegrates when folks start 'labelling' and 'demonizing' individuals who present an opposing argument with the use of inflammatory terms being used to flame and attack the messenger vs. addressing the message.  Having said that  and read your post.  I have a few questions and a statement that goes to the heart of the strategy you are proposing.<br><br>First, how did you decide that this issue of same gender sex marriage was a 'civil right' what was your basis for that conclusion.<br><br>Second, there is no scientific data that proves there is any genetic basis for  sexual behavior of any kind, nor for any behaviors whatsoever.  There is just no scientific basis for such assertions. All theories purporting to demonstrate a genetic basis/gaygene for 'homosexual' behavior has been debunked.<br><br>When it comes to legal discrimination against conduct there is a significant body of law that does allow for such discrimination and it ranges from disorderly conduct to banning marriage between brothers and sisters. That you engage in a behavior privately also does not preclude society from making laws against that conduct, i.e. polygamy and/or domestic abuse.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_14:43:57", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 10, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843872": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "It is a choice like stealing,fighting,lying,murdering,cheating.I am sure you think those people who engage in that bad behavior is born that way too.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:19:50", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3823198, "depth": 1, "points": 1, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3869988": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Caselaw acknowledges marriage as a fundamental right.  It's not to say that marriage is written in the constitution (to my knowledge it is not).  However, it is to say that the courts have interpreted the Constitution to include a protection of marriage as a fundamental right . . . similar to how courts have interpreted a fundamental right to privacy even though the Constitution makes no direct mention of \"privacy.\"<br><br>I've listed several cases, both in my comments and my original post, that recognize marriage as an understood, fundamental rights.<br><br>The question moving forward is whether that right should apply to homosexual couples as it already does to heterosexual couples.<br><br>I am not conflating the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the 14th Amendment.  In fact, I was careful to list both as options A and B, respectively.  They are separate clauses, each with separate arguments regarding this issue.<br><br>An identity argument falls under the Equal Protection Clause.  An Act argument, in this instance, falls under the Due Process Clause.<br><br>Two separate arguments.  That one might fail (Equal Protection) does not mean that the other will as well (sidenote:  I'm not saying an equal protection challenge would fail, but I'm just assuming it would for the sake of this discussion).<br><br>The court can either say . . . we're dealing with two proposed <i>identities</i> (heterosexual and homosexual). .  .<br><br>Or . . . The court can say . . . we're dealing with two <i>ACTS</i> (gay marriage and straight marriage).. . . \"marriage\" being an act rather than a state of being.<br><br>The act is \"marriage\" . . . to marry.<br><br>So this is an argument of act, not necessarily identity.<br><br>Earlier, you characterized the act of marrying as:<br><i><b>\". . . the right to marry like all other individuals in this society the opposite sex.\"</i></b><br><br>But, see. . . that's the distinction.  I don't accept the second half of that sentence (\"opposite sex\") to be controlling, here.<br><br>I can't think of a Supreme Court case that expressly defines \"marriage\" as being between people of the \"opposite sex.\"  The only cases I can think of simply reference \"marriage\" with no mention of to whom one would marry.<br><br>On the contrary, I can cite a quote from <i>Lawrence</i> that says the States and Courts should <i>avoid</i> defining types of personal relationships (and <i>Lawrence</i> does describe the sexual act as entering into a \"relationship\") . . . here it is (my commentary is in brackets to reflect context):<br><br><i><b>The statutes [anti gay-sex laws] do seek to control a personal relationship [meaning, gay sex] that, whether or not entitled to formal recognition in the law, is within the liberty of persons to choose without being punished as criminals.<br><br>This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects.\"</i></b><br><br>Here, the Court is basically saying that the act (sex) is one of many private liberties implied by the Constitution, protected by the Due Process Clause.<br><br>This statement is made without mention or even consideration of whether or not homosexuality is an identity.  The Court simply took the act, divorced from identity, and said that there is no reason to treat the act of gay sex any differently than the act of heterosexual sex.  <br><br>This is not an Equal Protection judgment from the Court.  It protects the homosexual in the same way it protects the straightest man alive who, for whatever reason, might one day engage in a homosexual <b>act.</b><br><br>Now, as you've said many times . . . the State can regulate conduct. . . <br><br>Yes . . .but I've repeatedly responded by saying that the State must have a reason to regulate.  The state needs a reason.  And, in <i>Lawrence</i> the State could not find a reason to discriminate against the act of gay sex while not also discriminating against the act of heterosexual sex.<br><br>Well, some might ask . . . what about a slippery slope?  <br><br>Well, the Court anticipates that argument by reestablishing the manner in which many freedoms are curtailed should they adversely impact other, innocent human beings . . . <br><br>If we revisit the previous quote, we'll see how the Court does this (emphasis mine):<br><br><i>\"This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries <b>absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects.\"</b></i><br><br>The safeguard against a slippery slope is to deny that which injures or abuses another person or institution protected by law.<br><br>Pedophilia is not protected because the law consistently holds that minors can not consent.  If there is no consent, there is no legal act.<br><br>Animals can not consent either . . . which is why beastiality is not legal.<br><br>Again, this is a Due Process argument focused on the liberty to act on that which is private and personal in nature . . . and, implicitly, does not injure or abuse. . . .which raises the oft-repeated argument:  Who are gay people hurting if they decide to get married?<br><br>The other caveat is a governmental interest.  One such interest is the states interest in the overall health and general welfare, which, as I've noted, has been used to strike down incest between family members such as brother and sister (small gene pool, higher chance for birth defects).<br><br>Barring such caveats, the Court does recognize the need to respect and protect our freedom to act by staying out of our business.<br><br>As the Court notes (<i>Lawrence</i>), <br><br><i><b>\"Liberty protects the person from unwarranted government intrusions into a dwelling or other private places.  In our  tradition the State is not omnipresent in the home.  And there are other spheres of our lives and existence, outside the home, where the State should not be a dominant presence.  Freedom extends beyond spatial bounds.  Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct.\"</b></i><br><br>We are more than our inherent identities . . . indeed, our full freedom of expression includes a host of actions and private decisions that we make every day.<br><br><i>Lawrence</i> dealt with one such act (sex) to say that government should not intrude on a consensual sex act where the only difference is that one act is homosexual and the other is heterosexual.<br><br>It's the <b>act</b> . . . <br><br>Marriage is also an act (to marry) . . . which leads many, myself included, to argue that the State and/or Courts should not interfere in the private act to marry . . . whether it be a private decision/act to marry a person of the opposite sex or a private decision/act to marry a person of the same sex.<br><br>This is an argument based on action, not identity.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_20:00:52", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3859675, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843877": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "brklyngrl,<br><br>Thanks for the feedback.  Your kinda preaching to the choir, here.  I have no problems with same-sex marriage.  I just question some of the arguments/legal tactics being used to get from point A to point B.<br><br>Those three examples are simply questions gay-rights advocates will likely face if they argue gay rights as an immutable characteristic.  I've heard those answers before . . . I'm just saying I don't think those answers are gonna cut it in front of a 5-4 conservative supreme court.  Something tells me they're gonna ask for the \"gay gene,\" in which case things might go downhill from there.<br><br>A lot of it depends on how one shapes the question.  If you go down that path, you're probably going to have to answer the following:  whether one's sexuality is an inherent trait, or is sexuality a fluid concept (forget \"choice,\" but consider fluidity)?  <br><br>I accept that people can be born gay, but I'm not quite sure that's the rule for everybody.  I can see pretty solid arguments on both sides of the equation (meaning people whom, for whatever reason, either acknowledge or choose a different sexual preference -- straight to gay or gay to straight).<br><br>My thing is, why have that conversation if you can pursue the same objective by arguing gay marriage as a matter of privacy and self-determination?<br><br>Bisexuality implies some kind of choice.  If it's its \"own thing,\" then it seems like what we're really saying is that \"sexuality\" in-and-of-itself is its \"own thing\" regardless of orientation.  This lends to the idea that sexuality is a fluid, yet PRIVATE concept.  In which case it might be best to pursue gay rights as a matter of privacy rather than immutable trait.<br><br>What I'm getting at is this:  To say one is born gay is usually accompanied by arguments that people don't have a choice in their sexual preference.  I'm fine with part one of that statement, but not sold on part two.<br><br>Which is why I'd think it best to avoid the quicksand altogether and simply focus on gay rights as a matter of PRIVACY regardless of sexual orientation.<br><br>I'm saying . . . who cares if homosexuality is a choice or not . . . that shouldn't matter because these same rights are covered as a matter of privacy.<br><br>It seems to come down to this:  Person A says that, despite living a heterosexual lifestyle, he eventually realized that he had been gay all along.  Gay rights activists say we should believe person A, but dismiss person B who says the opposite (that despite being gay his entire life, he eventually realized that he is straight).  Why?<br><br>Couldn't one argue that sexuality is, if anything, personal by nature?  Meaning, you don't really know who you love until you actually fall in love??<br><br>Again, I see other possible ways to obtain gay marriage without necessarily having to prove that people are born gay.  I actually think that's a trap gay-rights advocates keep falling into.  It shouldn't matter whether your born gay or not, the focus should be on the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of the proposed discrimination.<br><br>As for covering/in the closet, it would be benificial to convey the point that it's not a luxury.  Because I'm sure some black folk wouldn't mind \"covering\" their race regardless of how much inner turmoil it caused them.  Like I said, this doesn't necessarily make gay rights more or less important.  But it does get in the way when some try to draw direct parallels between gay and black struggles.  \"Covering\" is an issue that is particular to the gay community and, therefore, needs to be discussed as such.  People can try to empathize, but they can't always be expected to sympathize. . . <br><br>But, like I said . . . sympathy should not be a prerequisite for equal rights.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:20:23", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 4, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842952, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844394": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "B serious,<br><br>I do not think the state has to answer how denying improves the society. Rather the petitioner for change must demonstrate that they provide benefits to society that warrant the state EXTENDING those said benefits onto such conduct.<br><br>The state is not taking action. The state is being petitioned to change. Ergo, the burden is on the petitioner.  But in the interest of discussion let's consider this question.<br><br>How does the state benefit from same gender marriage?  There is an avalanche of data that shows it is in the best interest of children to be raised with a mother and a father.  So, if we wanted to look at it from the negative question you posed, the state can show that same gender sex marriage to not enhance the benefit of children.  Children raised in single family heads of households dominate our prison, welfare and social service case loads. There is just reams of data showing the negative influence upon human potential who are raised fatherless or motherless.<br><br>Ergo, it is not in the interest of the state to sanction marriages knowing the potential for harm to children is far greater than the likelihood of positive outcomes.  The states interest  is in setting the bar for the best possible outcome.  There being no need to lower that standard.  Can other family units have positive outcomes...certainly..however the goal of society is to create terms for the maximium potential for the best not to settle for less than the best when extending the benefits the state does for encouraging marriages.<br><br>With regard to the 'living breathing' document I can only respond that is in the eye of the judge, then, no?  I think then we can agree  that in terms of status quo, there is no constitutional right to marriage, then.. A fact, that should be clearly established when folks start talking about their 'civil rights'.  They may be pursuing a legal argument for the basis of such rights but as it stands there is no such civil right.  <br><br>Also, if we are going to put the rights of the individual above the state, will we also grant brothers and sisters as well as parent/offspring the same 'right to privacy' as you are contending?  On the basis that that the state has to show harm is being done before it can discriminate against  those individual pursuits ?<br><br>I think civil unions handles the thorny  separation of church and state issue.<br><br>But gays want to make that divisive as well by claiming it is a 'separte but equal' discrimination.<br><br>How are you getting a right under the due process clause? I admit not being familiar with due process other than as the right to trial by your peers in a court of law rather than being lynched by a vigilante mob.  Soooo, just how are you getting from point A to point B with that 'due process'?", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_18:08:37", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 6, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844037, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844317": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Well,\"covering\" and \"passing\" might not be all that dissimilar.... both for the perceived benefits to and the psychological drawbacks for the person living in secret.<br><br>As the 12 Step folks like to say: you're only as sick as your secrets.<br><br>But we agree on principle here.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_18:05:17", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843877, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3871537": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "That is another lie and deception by the wicked gay movement.They brand any one opposed to them like they might have gay tendencies.This is cleverly done to silence their critics.We I am telling you it is the GAY  SO CALLED COMMUNITY THAT HAS NO RESPECT FOR THE STRAIGHT.THAT STATEMENT PROVES IT.HOMOS WANT TO CONVERT OR BELIEVE EVERYONE HAS HOMO TENDENCIES.AND THEY WANT US TO RESPECT THEM.HELL NO!!!!!!!!!THEY WILL NEVER SEE GAY MARRIAGE IN THIS COUNTRY,NOT WITHOUT BLOODSHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_22:20:20", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 4, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851749, "depth": 6, "points": 1, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3880754": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "None of what you are saying is true. nada. It is warped twisted psychobabble to support some fear you hold.<br><br>I used examples that were indicative of choices people make when introduced to something intitally. It could have been your first taste of ice cream or your first slice of apple pie. The point was simply that when you try it you like it. It is PLEASURABLE not that as you choose to misconstrue it as some 'addictive/compulsive' behavior.<br><br>Geesh...you see demons and seek to demonize where there are none and no malintent.<br><br>Stop projecting your fears onto to others as them having some malcious intent to justify your own fears and insecurities.<br><br>Unbelievable what a cliff you went off on that.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_13:26:51", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 6, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3872623, "depth": 9, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3893050": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "B Serious<br>I will have to go back and re=read some of your posts, but I believe Lawrence was such a case that you were asserting there was a fundamental right to marriage and no such support is found in Lawrence.  <br><br>Your argument appears circuitous. First you say that there are 2 separate arguments, then you frame the question \"going forward\" as being about hetero vs. homo  (conduct) while suppositioning that there is a fundamental right to marriage  for INDIVIDUALS in case law. That is conflating the argument.  When you use terms about hetero vs. homo as the framing of the question you are talking about sexual conduct. When you throw in hetero vs. homo couple you are no longer talking about the rights of individual as well.  Your argument is either based on a flawed premise or your use of terms is not as we have agreed.<br><br>.When you frame the question as being about homo vs. hetero couples that is an identity argument. Yet you say you are not conflating the issue.  Hetero and homo are not groups of people the terms are simply descriptors of sexual conduct.  Nothing else is encompassed in the term. It is a behavioral term.  Which brings me back once again to the point that sexual conduct can be discriminated against criminally and prohibited under the law. <br><br>If for the sake of argument we agree that marriage is a fundamental right, then the Constitutionality is based on the individual not the idea that these individuals based on their behavior merit this fundamental right.<br><br>The argument gets most convulted when you describe sexual conduct as the defining ACT of marriage while simultaneous denying that sexual conduct is being used as an identity. i.e. gay vs. straignt marriage<br><br>In short, unless gay vs. straight is an identity there can be no argument in terms of an ACT of marriage. As the argument rests on the  ACT of sexual conduct not the individual, as the fundamental right.<br><br>With regards to how you disagree with an earlier assertion that marriage is granted to all individuals. You took issue with marriage being legal when it is opposite gender/  The statement, while you may disagree with it, tells us that ALL individuals in this society can marry. What your argument seeks to do is circumscribe marriage to specific sexual conduct, while the constitutionally fundamental right (conceded for this argument) is based on the inherent indiividual rights not individual behavior.<br><br>While personal relationships as you describe in Lawrence may be granted liberty.  Marriage is an institution, it is a legal entity, not a 'personal relationship under the law. It is primarily property and inheritance law, not a relationship. Society then has policy based on the property law.  Personal relationship is not granted in the institution of marriage.  Lawrence is based on the sexual conduct and the boundaries of the state, it is not about the institution of marriage.  I see no corollary between personal relationship and the institution of marriage.  Rather, this is the flawed premise many gay advocates promote as it leads to an emotional argument not based on facts.<br><br>You further assert that Lawrence was about sexual conduct independent of 'identity' and again that is because there is no such identity to recognize. Sodomy is not specific to a gender/ The court felt no need to make such a distinction. The court however did not , as you assert, find a fundamental right to sexual privacy. What the court found was that the INDIVIDUAL can choose to engage in sodomy, without it being criminalized.<br><br>The court is basically saying the INDIVIDUAL, based on constitutional 'due process' can CHOOSE to engage in sexual conduct. However, there is no ergo with regards to marriage. Lawrence does not implying anything about marriage or the insittuion of marriage. When you say the court took the ACT, independent of identity, ...  The law recognized that all individuals can engage in the specific act the law criminalized. The court recognized that sodomy is not specific to the same gender sex.  In short, the court said the gender of your partner when it comes to sexual conduct is a choice.  Nothing there about marriage.<br><br>You then go on to argue based on this::<br>\"This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects.\"\\<br><br>Once again you  frame the question as how does gay marriage harm the institution of marriage.  I have consistently replied that is a strawman argument.  Harm does not need to be shown for the state to find no compelling interest to extend the benefits of the institution of marriage to individuals who are not giving up individual liberties in the interest of the state.<br><br>Rather, homosexuals are seeking to sanction their indivdiual liberties with the institution of marriage.  Marriage was not granted benefits as a insittuiton because it was to enhance individaul freedom, those benefits were granted because the individual was being denied individual pursuits by entering into the institution of marriage.  The liberties given up were promiscuity and property, all of which benefitted the state. Ergo the state set forth policies to compensate the individual for the liberties they LOST by becoming married under the law.<br><br>Homosexuals can neither show a loss of individual liberty nor a benefit to the state that warrants the ACT of marriage.  Especially as the ACT of marriage is granted to ALL individuals, homosexuals can show no INDIVIDUAL denial of marriage, they can only put forth an argument based on sexual conduct.  Sexual conduct which they have the 'liberty to pursue' and which is an adult liberty they choose not to give up to comply with the vested interest of the STate for the interest of society and community and children.<br><br>Homosexual pursuit of marriage is the antithesis of the legal framework of marriage and the exhaltation of adult liberty ...the very thing the state circumscribes when individuals enter into the matrimonial state.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-19_07:27:29", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3869988, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3874621": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "LOL at the troll \"Kalagenesis\" who I myself never saw here at JJP before the gay discussion.<br><br>Sweetie, you need to get more subtle. You're a little too wound. Take a deep breath. Cut down on the caps and the EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!<br><br>Or maybe -- just maybe -- you  are doing satire. If so the CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS OMG TEH GAYS OMG !!! are kind of blatant, but they are working for you :)<br><br>OMG!!!!!!! GAYS!!!!!!!!<br><br>GAYS!!!!!!", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_03:48:15", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3871537, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843908": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Are you insane?So let me get this people dying of aids having gay unprotected sex while the rest of us choose to keep our sexual impulses under control,is just the same as someone who simply is born black?Keep it up next time it will be 99% of African Americans supporting anti gay measures.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:23:35", "killed": false, "user_key": "kalagenesis", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 9, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843848, "depth": 1, "points": 1, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3905354": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I never said <i>Lawrence</i> granted a fundamental right of marry.  The fundamental right to marry has already existed for decades, if not more.  It's been stated numerous times in the caselaw.  One need not reference <i>Lawrence</i> when arguing the fundamental right to marry because that right came about before <i>Lawrence</i> even existed.  <br><br>The caselaw is clear.  The Court recognizes a fundamental right \"to marry.\"  It recognizes that this act is fundamentally protected by our Constitution.  There's really no way around that.  Even more, case law repeatedly refers to the ACT of marrying, not the institution of marriage when explaining this right. . . .the Court refers to the act . . . \"to marry.\"<br><br>Regarding gay marriage, the Court will have to ask whether the act of marrying someone of the same sex can justifiably be treated any differently than the act of marrying someone of the opposite sex.<br><br>To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. Supreme Court has not defined the act of marrying.  I can't even think of a case where the U.S. Supreme Court specifically defines marriage as being between a man and a woman.  As far as I know, that case does not exist.<br><br><i>Lawrence</i> is important because it addresses the ongoing, generic question of whether a State may criminalize/discriminate against a gay act while not criminalizing/discriminating against heterosexual acts.<br><br>And the Court in <i>Lawrence</i> most definitely talked of gay acts . . .<br><br>You said the following:<br><i>\"What the court found was that the INDIVIDUAL can choose to engage in sodomy, without it being criminalized.\"</i><br><br>This answers a legal question that was not asked by the Court.<br><br>From the case . . . <br><br>Legal question:<br><i><b>\"The question before the Court is the validity of a Texas statute making it a crime for two persons of the same sex to engage in certain intimate sexual conduct.\"</b></i><br><br>\"two persons of the same sex\" . . . homosexual acts.  That's where the Court began . . . .that's how the Court framed the issue.<br><br>You mention the following:<br><i><b>\"Harm does not need to be shown for the state to find no compelling interest to extend the benefits of the institution of marriage to individuals who are not giving up individual liberties in the interest of the state.\"</i></b><br><br>You define said liberties as \"promiscuity\" and \"property.\"  These are not specific to sexual orientation/preference.  Gay people can own and lose property as well.  Gay people can be promiscuous and monogamous as well.<br><br>And your argument is based on the \"institution of marriage\" whereas the Courts address the liberty to marry.<br><br>This is far from a strawman argument.  The government needs a reason to act.  It needs a reason to restrict.  One such reason is harm to other people and institutions.  It's valid question.  Indeed it is crucial to the anti-gay marriage side of the argument.<br><br>Every law has a reason behind it.  The law can make distinctions among different groups and conduct.  But it must have a reason to do so.<br><br>Find a law and you'll surely find a reason for that law.  The Government cannot act without reason.  The government can't say . . . \"we deny people under 5 feet the liberty to where red ties\" without giving a valid reason.  No matter how grand or trivial, the government needs a reason.  It might be a poor reason, but there must be a reason nonetheless.<br><br>Again, our laws and Constitution are written in negative speech.  The law doesn't say you have a right to free speech.  No, the law says:<br><br><i>\"Congress <b>shall make no law</b> . . . abridging the freedom of speech . . . \"</i><br><br>That's how our laws our written.  The government doesn't grant liberties so much as it restricts how those pre-existing liberties are applied.  And when it restricts, the government must have a reason.  The government can take away your right to free speech . . . but it must have a reason to create an exception.  In part, such exceptions are understood by looking at past caselaw to anticipate future Court decision.  That's all we're doing with this issue of gay marriage.<br><br>The anti-gay marriage argument isn't that the State may ban without cause, but that it may ban for reasons . . . x, y and z.  And it's up to the courts to decide whether or not those reasons are sufficient.  Some courts say yes, others say no . . . and it'll all end up on the lap of the U.S. Supreme Court. . . .a Court with a swing of one or two votes (as is the case with many other controversial issues).<br><br>Do you have any caselaw whereby the U.S. Supreme Court specifically defines the liberty to marry?  Do you have any caselaw that defines how and between whom that act should occur?  I can't think of any. <br><br>But the government needs a reason.  It's essential to the contract it has with it's citizens.  It's part of the glue that keeps this crazy experiment together.  <br><br>Indeed, it's essential to that all-powerful universal question . . . The day we can't ask \"why?\" is the day we cease being a democracy.<br><br>Due Process is just a fancy way of saying . . . a reason . . . a system . . . a rule by which the government is bound to obey before it might take away a right (rights that are granted through negative speech in our U.S. Constitution). . . an explaination of \"why?\"<br><br>And said rights have been written in the broadest of terms so that they might maintain their relevance in an evolving society.  They invite . . . even demand interpretation.  There would be no use for the Judicial Branch if this were not so.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-19_20:20:21", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3893050, "depth": 7, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3870046": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "The purpose of that statement was to discuss the <b>act</b> of marrying another person.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_20:05:22", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3859754, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3861221": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "\"I was saying that I am starting to get a strong sense that some of the anti-gay arguments out there have what I would consider to be an unhealthy obsession with sex -- that is, an unhealthy and misdirected obsession with what other people do with our private parts etc.\"<br><br>Michelle, thank you, thank you for saying this.  <br>I do not think that many ant-gay marriage folks can get past the SEX in homosexual.  It is like they are fully and wholly hung up on gay sex in some twisted sort of way.  Why is it that gay people are \"perverts\" and \"flaunt their sexuality\", but one glance outside the door, one  internet search or a flip on the old tube shows heterosexuals letting it all hang out.  <br><br>As much as I hate to say it, some people have an unhealthy and warped sense homosexuality to the extent that it interferes with logical thinking.<br><br>I mean are we really defined by who we have sex with?  Are we that fundamental? Why is there this notion that homosexuals have sex and only hetrosexuals fall in love? <br><br>Tami<br><a href=\"http://pinkchocolatesunshine.com\" rel=\"nofollow\">http://pinkchocolatesunshine.com</a>", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_10:58:26", "killed": false, "user_key": "347495439b779614db6736642f07b3fa", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851122, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3872623": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Val,<br><br>I was initially very interested in the possibility of working together on areas of shared agreement when this topic first came up including civil unions, which to me would be just fine and in fact preferable. <br><br>I engaged in deliberately calm discussion with whiterosebuddy when this topic first came up and was very glad to see this and other areas of shared agreement. <br><br>But something has shifted for me along the way. I can pinpoint right when it happened. It was when I decided to look into the initiative that passed in Arkansas (<a href=\"http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j92e9g5RVPEgCyREmVOEb37CC7LAD949D6V00\" rel=\"nofollow\">AP article here</a>), which I find deeply and profoundly cruel. <br><br>I read the <a href=\"http://adoptionact.familycouncilactioncommittee.com/\" rel=\"nofollow\">website of the group that promoted the initiative </a> and tried to understand where they were coming from. I was sickened, actually.<br><br>I don't have or want children, myself. But to my surprise, the energy of such an initiative and the group promoting it affected me profoundly. To my eyes, they are cruel, Val. In a deep and serious and needless way -- cruel. Which to me raised the question: why? Why this ugly energy?<br><br>And during my previous discussion with whiterosebuddy, our place of disagreement was that whiterosebuddy believes that same-gender couples should not be allowed to raise children together. I didn't really understand what that meant at the time. I just didn't take in the actual bizarre cruelty of this stance until I started reading and thinking about and taking in some of the energy of the proponents of that initiative in Arkansas.<br><br>And in trying to understand the real source of the truly horrific energy coming from the Arkansas proponents whose website I read, I was particularly struck by one part of <a href=\"http://adoptionact.familycouncilactioncommittee.com/index.asp?pageid=4\" rel=\"nofollow\"> their website's FAQ.  </a><br><br><i>2. Will this measure prevent single parent adoptions?<br>No. This law will not prevent single homosexuals or single heterosexuals from adopting children as long as they refrain from cohabiting. It will have no effect on adoptions that have already occurred.<br><br>3. Will this measure prevent single parent foster care?<br>This act will not prohibit single individuals from serving as foster parents as long as they refrain from cohabiting. It does prevent single cohabiting persons from serving as a foster parent. If a single person begins cohabiting after becoming a foster parent, they could be disqualified.</i><br><br>I would encourage everyone reading this to stop right there and think about this stance very carefully.<br><br>The proponents of this initiative would rather have single people raising adoptive or foster children than couples who are \"co-habitating.\"<br><br>This was when I started to get that there was some pathology, deep pathology, here. Deep and serious pathology about sex that in my opinion is not going to be amenable to coalition \"where can we agree\" kind of dialogue and work together.<br><br>And then I have been and am watching the discussions here at JJP and seeing that the person who I initially sought areas of agreement with ... talks about sex in what I experience as a very creepy way. I know wrb probably does not have the same stance as that Arkansas group re: single parenting/foster parenting. But there are some patterns that connect for me nonetheless.<br><br>A comment very recently in this discussion here from whiterosebuddy states extremely clearly what I was seeing in somewhat less clear statements all along:  <br><br><i>Your first sexual encounter is no different from the first time you are offered drugs or liquor. You get to decide to engage in that conduct no matter what the gender of the individual is. The probability of that chance being equal is not the issue, the probability of what you choose to do is the issue. Everyone decides with equal chance whether to imbibe, inhale or fornicate. Conduct is always a choice.</i><br><br>As far as I'm concerned, this statement comes from an individual who either experiences sex as compulsive and pathological, or has not actually had sex and is parroting other people/groups who have a pathological relationship with it. <br><br>To compare sex to addictive substances in such a way suggests to me that we are dealing with people/groups who have some sort of sex addiction, whether they are acting on it or not. <br><br>Now, I do understand that people struggle with compulsions and addictions, and that this is no reason to not try to work with them. But here's the problem, Val: my analysis of the situation at this point is that the hard-core anti-gay \"politics\" are coming largely from proponents' own irresponsible orientation to their own pathology. <br><br>My analysis at this point is that they have projected their own compulsive pathological relationship with sex onto other people -- they are falsely universalizing their own sickness -- and are using the power of an already sex-pathological, heterosexist/homophobic society to play out their own psychological issues in what I see as an abusive way. <br><br>What I see is that they are selfishly trying to deal with their own sick relationship with sex covering it under other things and by hurting other people.<br><br>Over and over in my life, I have learned that I have almost no tolerance for people and groups that run their own self-referential psychological dramas to the detriment of whatever might be productively accomplished. <br><br>I have seen a lot of this on the left (including white progressive and white feminist contexts) and I have seen it in personal situations as well. I have learned I don't have tolerance for this. It is self-referential, it is incredibly harmful and it is deeply deceptive because it hides the real situation under political-sounding rhetoric.<br><br>This psycho-drama-focus offends me very very strongly, on levels I would call spiritual and political, that go beyond any words I could use to express. On a more practical level, I have found that it is pretty much impossible for me to have any actual communication with people in this space. I just don't experience them as \"sane\" and for me communication becomes like trying to have a dialogue in a eerie distorted funhouse type thing, with all the crazy distorted mirrors.<br><br>And I also recognize -- very clearly -- that the gay marriage proponents are running their own version of ego-drama. I knew going into the discussions here at JJP that their approach offends me deeply as well. <br><br>But initially, I had not had enough exposure to the hard-core people on the other side to have any sense at all about the deep pathology they are carrying and seeking to deal with by projecting on others. I had no idea about their sick relationship to sex itself.<br><br>One layer of my unwillingness to work on areas of (seeming) shared agreement comes from the gut-level revulsion I have for those who would seek to cope with their own diseased relationship to sex by projecting it on others. If someone has such a sickness and is struggling honestly with it, that's ok with me. I might find it somewhat creepy on shallow levels, but if they take clear, honest and real responsibility for it, I think I could handle it.<br><br>But this denial of the illness and this related harm to other people out of the denial is ... I experience it as something approaching actual evil, Val. That is how deeply repulsed I am. What I find most repulsive is the deep dishonesty of this approach, and the cruelty of it as well.<br><br>So I myself personally -- and please know that I am speaking only for myself personally -- have come to the conclusion that I myself cannot have dialogue or work with with the hard-core people who to my eyes display this pathological relationship to sex and try to foist off the responsibility for their own illness onto others through inflicting harm under the guse of supposedly calm political stances. <br><br>I find the energy of this to be actually repulsive, and in actual practice I cannot remain open enough to truly be useful in dialogue and collaboration. <br><br>I am open to dialogue and collaboration with those who do not have this pathological relationship to sex underneath their claimed political or related stances. <br><br>And there may well be plenty of people who don't have an unhealthy relationship to sex but who, for various possible other reasons, are not in favor of same-gender marriage but are ok with civil unions or civil marriage. <br><br>(Although in full disclosure, it's also the case that this issue is not my top priority in terms of change for this country.)<br><br>I only speak for myself. It may be that others have more tolerance for the energy underneath this than I do and that they will be able to engage in useful collective efforts that I couldn't bear to be part of.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_23:26:39", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 7, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3867343, "depth": 8, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3861874": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Funny you should mention this. Last week I found photos of a guy I'd met 3 years ago at a No on 8 rally with his partner. I thought was gay though he had been married at the time (and getting divorced). When I asked him about it he denied it and tried to shame me for even suggesting it. With a lot of the arguments whiterosebuddy uses.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_11:30:57", "killed": false, "user_key": "heartsandflowers", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3861581, "depth": 10, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3842937": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I'm all for gay rights as I'm for human rights and it makes no sense in 2008 to legalize hate and bigotry and via the ballot box makes even less sense. However, at the same time, I'm totally turned off by the racism that many of them have shown, its as if they can be racists and no one seems to have the nerve to call them out on it.<br><br>The aren't going to win over any converts with that sort of attitude since racism is as bad as homophobia and many of the church folks are never going to forget the slurs.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:38:45", "killed": false, "user_key": "2ff0cf42b5a639d58a26d9de9e707a91", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3823198, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3852160": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "You know, Craig...I think we were all worried America couldn't rise above it's fears to elect a black man.    After the MSM terrorized us with stories about the Bradley effect....I think we all settled in to watch the results with that doubt in our minds.    Then he won.   I think in that moment of grace...we changed.   Or, I would like to think that we did.  <br><br>I would like to think that maybe those of us who oppose gay marriage - if the prop 8 vote had occurred on Nov 5th - in that moment of grace, would have said <i>maybe the next person in this booth will vote \"yes\"..but not me, not on this magical day</i><br><br>I wonder if our hearts were softer on Nov 5 than on the 4th....  I would like to think they were.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_22:57:08", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851352, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844484": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "But the government already discriminates against conduct when it does not sanction brother/sister or parent/offspring to marry.<br><br>I cannot follow your 'due process' reasoning.  I am only familiar with due process as the right to trial by peers vs. vigilante mob lynching.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_18:19:01", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 8, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844111, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3842952": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "This is a smart post, and I agree with most of it. I like the strategic part so much I plan to distribute it widely. <br><br>So, because I really appreciate the thought you've put into this, as well as your helpful strategic advice, I'm going to try to answer your questions for gay people, even though I found them confusing. <br><br>1. That would totally be weird if people were both suggesting that being gay is biological and that one became gay after living straight for some extended period of time. And it would be natural to wonder if it could work the other way. But what people are actually saying, including the people who do this, is that they were LYING about being straight because of the incredible social pressure to do so. <br><br>2. I'm not sure where you're getting your ideas about bisexuality being some sort of switching back and forth between being gay and being straight that magically undermines biological theories about sexuality. It's its OWN thing. I guess you could argue that people who are bisexual should be forced into straight relationships, but that seems a rather different issue entirely. <br><br>3. I'm fairly certain that the phenomena you're referring to as 'covering' is the exact same phenomena that the gay community refers to as 'being in the closet'. That's nice that many Black people think it must be a privilege, but I assure you the lived experience of it is not that simple. Sure, it has its advantages, but there are severe downsides also. I can try to explain it if that's useful, but there are also at least 30 years worth of scholarship on the politics of being in the closet, so I don't think I'll be able to offer much in the way of novel insights. Maybe try pretending that you have a really big secret about yourself, and that if you told it you might lose your job, you would almost certainly lose at least some friends, and there was a real possibility that at least some members of your family (including your parents) wouldn't love you anymore. If you don't tell it, you can keep all that, but you have to give up any chance at a real romantic relationship, and you live knowing that it could all blow up at any moment. What lengths might you go to to pretend you didn't have to make that choice? How much of a privilege would it be to be faced with smaller and larger versions of that choice almost every day for the rest of your life?", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:39:51", "killed": false, "user_key": "d96a7fa7ae15e0cc9b61c9a78beff71c", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 5, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843977": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Not quite how I would have said it...but your incredulity is more than warranted.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:31:23", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843908, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843987": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I agree with you kp except for the part about choice. Homosexuality wasn't  a social identity or medical category until the last part of the 19th century. Nor was heterosexuality. Same sex relations have always existed, of course, but it was an activity that lots of people participated in with a variety of cultural and political rules of engagement.<br><br>So no, I don't think being homo is like having more or less quantity of skin pigment. The social meaning of that pigment, however, does depend on the cultural, political, historical and geographical moment. In other words, the meaning of the color of a person's skin is not transhistorical, any more than the meaning of homosexual or heterosexual activities.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:32:27", "killed": false, "user_key": "313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843848, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3852692": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Once again, you live up to your name. I think you have found Truth.<br><br>Amazing.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_00:01:42", "killed": false, "user_key": "Lilytiger", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845342, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3892120": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "In response to <a href=\"http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3887733\" rel=\"nofollow\">Val's comment below</a> asking<br><br><i>What can we do to level the playing field? That is what I want to do. I want equality for all. I will stand with you and fight the same as I did for Obama.<br><br>Equal rights for couples under civil unions. No discrimination for anyone under any circumstances and repeal DOMA.<br><br>What can I/we do? Where do we begin because I don't know. Educate me. A new JJP post regarding actionable steps on this matter would be appreciated.</i><br><br>Look at this, Val!<br><br>From our president-elect on <a href=\"http://www.change.gov/agenda/civil_rights_agenda/\" rel=\"nofollow\">his new site</a><br><br><blockquote>Support for the LGBT Community<br><br>The Obama-Biden Plan<br><br>* Expand Hate Crimes Statutes: In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported and made up more than 15 percent of such crimes. Barack Obama cosponsored legislation that would expand federal jurisdiction to include violent hate crimes perpetrated because of race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, or physical disability. As a state senator, Obama passed tough legislation that made hate crimes and conspiracy to commit them against the law.<br><br>* Fight Workplace Discrimination: Barack Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and believes that our anti-discrimination employment laws should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. While an increasing number of employers have extended benefits to their employees' domestic partners, discrimination based on sexual orientation in the workplace occurs with no federal legal remedy. Obama also sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.<br><br>* Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples: Barack Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples legal rights and privileges equal to those of married couples. Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions. These rights and benefits include the right to assist a loved one in times of emergency, the right to equal health insurance and other employment benefits, and property rights.<br><br>* Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage: Barack Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment in 2006 which would have defined marriage as between a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried couples. ....[snip]<br> <br>* Expand Adoption Rights: Barack Obama believes that we must ensure adoption rights for all couples and individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. He thinks that a child will benefit from a healthy and loving home, whether the parents are gay or not..... </blockquote><br><br>(there's more re: AIDS and a snipped piece of Don't Ask Don't Tell, etc but this is the stuff most relevant to the discussion IMO)<br><br>As I watch the \"Gay Rights\" movement flail around and play often racist ego-dramas, I realize I have almost no faith in their vision or organizing ability.<br><br>On the other hand, I have witnessed the organizing wisdom and strategic brilliance of Barack Obama since I first started paying attention to his campaign.<br><br>So Val, who is at the front of this movement for civil unions and non-discrimination? From what I see, the one articulating this stance is -- President-elect Obama.<br><br>If we are lucky, he will provide some sort of infrastructure for us to organize. It should be the movement's job ... but Val, IMO they are pretty much useless on this goal.<br><br>Here's my thinking: President-elect Obama has amazing political skills related to the collective that is this nation. He does not use words lightly nor does he speak of doing without a sense that it can be done, with sufficient involvement.<br><br>In an interview with the Advocate in the spring (can't find the link right now) Pres-elect (then candidate) Obama told the interviewer that he is not the leader of the GLBT movement, the people in the movement have to be.<br><br>Val: IMO they, that movement, they are failing. And in the meantime, I have witnessed President-elect Obama succeeding -- hugely -- when so many thought he could not.<br><br>So while I hate to cast him as a leader for the LGBT movement -- he's not -- I think he could well be a leader for what is the actual practical approach.  He has a feel for the pulse of this country that is .. uncanny, to me. he would not be suggesting this agenda if he didn't feel it as do-able.<br><br>The question to me them turns to how people who have energy for this can be part of getting this legislation passed. I got an email today from David Plouffe with a survey asking, among other things, what issues I was interested in volunteering for and how I want to be involved as volunteer/organizer as the movement moves forward.<br><br>Did you get one of those emails today? If so I would strongly encourage you to emphasize the energy you have for this work. If not ... maybe I can get a blank survey form URL for you.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-19_04:34:52", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845019": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "thanks for the link. That was a great post. I highly recommend it.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_19:25:11", "killed": false, "user_key": "313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3807743, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851163": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "B-Serious, your knowledge as displayed over and over in this thread and the original post has made it worth it to me to wade through and past all the stuff in the discussion that just makes me want to throw up. <br><br>Thank you. I am learning. And I am grateful.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:09:05", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845185, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3852196": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Yes yes yes.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_23:02:11", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3852160, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3892137": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Hi Val: <br><br>&lt;a href=\"<br><a href=\"http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3892120%22%3EHere%27s\" rel=\"nofollow\">http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2...</a> another reply with actual idea/info -- I put it at the top of the thread</a>", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-19_04:38:08", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3887733, "depth": 12, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3842986": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Tell  that to Bayard Rustin, one of King's senior advisers and one of the primary minds behind the March on Washington, who was sent to the back of the bus when it was discovered he was queer. Or to Alvin Ailey, or Essex Hemphill, or Keith Haring, or Marlon Riggs, or Whitney Houston, or any of the other black queer folks who have given so much, yet been persecuted for their queerness, or died from HIV/AIDS (because no one wanted to put money into education or treatment to save \"our kind\"), or self destructed in front of our eyes. <br><br>I have some bad news for you and some of the other bigots I've been been reading on this thread and other Prop 8 threads on Jack and Jill who keep talking about \"they\" and \"those people.\" Lots and lots and lots of black people self-identify as gay and/or have same-sex sex: being gay is not a white condition nor a white disease. And being able to make, support, and keep family has everything to do with survival. How can anyone look at the damage done to black people during the days or slavery, and even now, when there's so little respect for making it possible for families to stay together.<br><br>What on earth is the benefit to anyone of my not being able to visit my wife in the hospital, or make decisions on her behalf? Or pick my child up from school (because I'm not the \"real,\" i.e., biological) parent? <br><br>We're talking about love here. Love that hurts no one, unless you want to make that crazy argument that somehow your marriage became less loving or valuable because of mine. And what I'm seeing is sheer hatred and meanness. You don't like gay marriage? Don't marry me. But shame on you for pissing on my struggle or trying to make my life harder.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:43:39", "killed": false, "user_key": "699a0ed7291c19435029056b684bd583", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 6, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842598, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851179": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Kenji Yoshino's <a href=\"http://www.kenjiyoshino.com/covering_defined.htm\" rel=\"nofollow\">Covering</a> looks at this from an orientation and racial perspective (if I recall correctly, he's biracial), and in his view<br><br><i>Unlike most racial minorities, women, and individuals with disabilities, most gays have (in fact or in the imagination of others) a panoply of options for assimilation. These forms of assimilation include conversion, passing, and covering. The history of gay rights can be retold as a history of<br>resistance to these three kinds for assimilation.</i><br><br>Well worth reading.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:11:13", "killed": false, "user_key": "JonPincus", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843877, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851697": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "The Yes on 8 organization spent 11 years working on a strategy and raising money. It was a cross section of people who came together for a common goal. They went to a cross section of people with otherwise divergent interests and got them to all agree on something.   <br><br>In looking at further strategies people have to take into consideration the entire history of the brutality of slavery and how that psychic wound has been passed down esp with regards to the sexual brutality and forced breeding of Black women. Also the media imagery that further contaminated how we are seen. Not everyone took on an inferiority complex or focused on racism exclusively, but the current Civil Rights leadership is really milking that victimization cow way past its prime. Also I'd say the desire to have a strong intact family within the narrow definition of a traditional marriage was the desire of many and for some a reaction to historical barriers we've had to overcome. Now it's time to do necessary internal work and let a lot of the negativity and apathy go and embrace all the choices we can make now that we can do so.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_22:04:04", "killed": false, "user_key": "heartsandflowers", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3865522": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "whiterosebuddy, I didn't actually ask for or desire your response or input here. I was responding to Truthseeker and was happy to get her response. But predictably, here you are with a deluge of words and defensiveness.<br><br><i>Furthermore, there is no unhealthy obession with sex.</i><br><br>Your <b>rhetorical claims</b> about what your actions mean do not not override what I actually see you doing.<br><br>That is -- your actions in these discussions speak far far louder to me than your attempted framing of your actions.<br><br>I see your actions, whiterosebuddy, in these discussions about gay issues. I see them quite apart from your claims about what they are. You are visible directly, despite wanting only your interpretations to be visible. <br><br>You tell youself whatever deceptive little stories you want to tell yourself about your actions -- that's between you and yourself and your god, if you have one. <br><br>But as for me, I'm onto you. And nothing you say about what you <i>claim</i> to be doing will override my actual direct observations of your actual actions here on this site in these threads.<br><br>This is the end of this thread of conversation with you or any other of the people who are doing what you are doing, from my end.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_14:30:25", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3861013, "depth": 6, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3892147": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Hi Val: <br><br><a href=\"http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3892120\" rel=\"nofollow\">Here</a> <br><br>is another reply with actual idea/info -- I put it at the top of the thread.<br><br>(posting it again bc the first attempt didn't quite work)", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-19_04:40:16", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3887733, "depth": 12, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843007": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "B-Serious,<br><br>  As you are aware that, in fact, the US Constitution does not establish any civil right to marriage?. We know there is no fundamental Constitutional right to marriage because society has long banned marriage between brothers/sisters and parent/offspring, right?<br><br>Am I to understand then, . that your belief that  marriage is a civil right  is part of the due process clause is a belief?<br><br>Sexual orientation is a term based on the biologic theory that there is a gay gene and briefs along with scientific data have demonstrated that in fact there is no scientifically proven medical evidence to support the existence of a gay gene. As you previously noted, where then is the bisexual gene. The reality is we know that  human sexual behavior occurs on a spectrum with individuals preferring ..homo, hetero or bisexuality as suits their desires. I fail to see how this fits with religious parallels in that the US Constitution under the establishmentarian clause (I think that's the one) prohitis the government from establishing any laws that abridge a persons right to engage in any religious faith..which is often referred to as 'separate but equal'<br><br>Such that civil unions,  would not create separate but equal instituition, but rather it would mean acknowledging that  marriage is a religious sacrament and  civil unions keep  government out of religion and keeps discrimination out of government.<br><br>The state does have a compelling interest when it comes to marriage as it is the cornerstone of the unit which raises children and prevents the state from having the financial burden of those children born in a marriage. The state recognized that the indivdiual was being asked to give up the individualistic pursuit of happiness when it came to marriage and it's finacial burden (primarily males at the timefooting the bills) such that the state offered incentives for men to marry and take on those financial burdens as that was in the interest of the state.<br><br>As the state is not criminalizing homosexual conduct the case needs to be made that it is a compelling interest of the state to provide the benefits of marriage to homosexuals.<br><br>The gay agenda has failed to make the casethat same sex marriage is of any benefit to society at large. Thus, the lack of legalized support for same sex marriage.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:47:44", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 8, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842736, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843011": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "I'm not a scientist or a quack.<br><br>I did not choose to be who I am.<br><br>I was who I am at birth and have been all of my life.<br><br>I know this about myself. You, clearly, don't have a clue about who I am.<br><br>I am Black. I am Gay. I am Orphan Adopted. <br><br>Being Orphan Adopted has probably informed more of my experience in life than being Black or Gay or being Black and Gay has.<br><br>I have faith. I have values. I have beliefs.<br><br>I have no idea what you're talking about.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:47:55", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3842598, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3844037": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "whiterosebuddy,<br><br>I'd say that the burden is on the state to demonstrate a rationale basis for said discrimination.<br><br>Which means answering the following question:  How does denying homosexuals the ability to marry improve the overall well being of society?<br><br>Again, the state is taking action, here.  It's their burden to show a rational basis.<br><br>As for your earlier comments, the U.S. Constitution is written in negative speech.  As such, there aren't a whole lot of positive rights to speak of.  There is no right to marriage, correct.  However, there's also no expressed right to privacy, either.  The courts obtained the right to privacy by assuming the logical application/intentions behind such Amendments as the 4th Amendment's right against illegal searches and seizures, as well as the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Amendments.<br><br>We got the right to privacy because the courts viewed the constitution as a living, breathing document rather than a strict set of rules.  The courts considered the spirit of these amendments to come to the rational conclusion that a right to privacy exists.  A similar approach can, and I think shouold, be taken regarding gay marriage and the spirit of the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.<br><br>As for your reference to the establishment clause.  If I'm correct, the establishment clause means that the government may not endorse a religion.  I think you might be referring to the 1st Amendment's freedom of religion/free exercise clause.  However, I think that there are practical compromises to satisfy both the freedom of religion clause and gay marriage.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_17:39:06", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 7, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843007, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851207": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Well stated.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:15:55", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845342, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3860943": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "I  don't strongly identify with being a heterosexual. I don't claim sexual conduct as an identity in any way. The only distinctions are the terms themselves which describe the gender of the partner. The fact that the terms are descriptors of the partners gender does not make it an identity.<br><br>There is no insistence that the law gives special consideration based on sexual conduct. In fact, that is the core problem for homosexuals they want to have special distinctions based on sexual conduct.<br><br>No, behaviors are never the sum total of the individual. Conduct is what you do, what you choose to do, it is not who you are.<br><br>Your first sexual encounter is no different from the first time you are offered drugs or liquor. You get to decide to engage in that conduct no matter what the gender of the individual is.  The probability of that chance being equal is not the issue, the probability of what you choose to do is the issue. Everyone decides with equal chance whether to imbibe, inhale or fornicate.  Conduct is always a choice.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-17_10:38:39", "killed": false, "user_key": "bf592ce4366b6f179fe40d8422c998a5", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850725, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3875280": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Civil unions are rarely equal to marriage in practice.  Marriages can cross state lines, civil unions can not.  In states with civil union laws, many couples face obstacles dealing with things like getting health coverage, because federal laws require marriage and so they are used as loopholes.  While civil unions in theory are equal to marriages, they are rarely thought of the same way and so they are rarely treated the same way.  I generally think that comparisons between the gay rights movement and the Civil Rights Movement are overstated, but here I think there is an important precedent: this country has already proven that a policy of separate but equal does not work.<br><br>On your second point: if I marry my boyfriend, and the government recognizes that marriage, how does that affect the church down the road?  They can continue to believe whatever they like about the two of us.  How is this imposing our beliefs on theirs?  This isn't a rhetorical question, I am genuinely clueless on how my hypothetical marriage would affect anyone but me, my husband, and whomever files our taxes at the IRS.", "is_last_child": true, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_05:55:17", "killed": false, "user_key": "9c303acec6970a11c48eacffef4d32c4", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3871258, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851730": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "I found this blurb over on DK in a diary about all the black Republican shills who will be getting full airtime from now till.... whenever.<br><br>The blurb is about Rev. Eugene Rivers:<br><br><i>    Dr. Sylvia Rhue, Director of Equal Partners in Faith says, \u2018We are disappointed in Reverend Rivers\u2019 crusade of deliberate misinformation and outright malevolence against the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community, a community which is comprised of all colors, races, and ethnic groups. Mr. Rivers knows this and he pretends that it is not true.\u2019<br><br>    Furthermore, Rivers\u2019 statement, \u2018Same-sex couples wanting to marry are white lesbians who seek the accouterments of family life,\u2019 reflects his misunderstanding about the makeup of his community. According to a report published by the National Black Justice Coalition and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute, based on the 2000 Census, black same-sex households make up 14% of the same-sex households in the United States, greater than the 13% of the general population that is African-American. Black lesbian couple households are almost as likely as Black married opposite-sex couple households to include a child of one or both of the adults (69%). Nearly half of Black male same-sex couple households (46%) include a child of one or both of the partners. As Bishop John Selders, Presider of The Inter-Denominational Conference of Liberation Congregations and Ministries observes, laws discriminating against same-sex couples cut across racial lines: \u2018There are significant numbers of people of color, African Americans in particular, who are equally discriminated against because of unjust laws.\u2019 Bishop Selders adds, \u2018I\u2019m disappointed again by the shameful rhetoric espoused by brothers and sisters of color regarding same gender loving marriage.\u2019<br><br>    As people of faith, we call on Reverend Rivers and other faith leaders to support the families of same-sex couples that are living in their congregations and communities. We ask them to lift up as examples of selfless love same-sex couples of all races who have dedicated themselves to each other and their children, despite, in many cases, receiving no legal benefits or protections for their commitment. And we call on all people of faith to join together to resist the attempts of the enemies of equality to divide along lines of race, class, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity.\"<br></i><br><br>I know folks will get a kick out of her entire diary.<br><br><a href=\"http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/16/17113/204/105/661972\" rel=\"nofollow\">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/16/17113/...</a>", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_22:07:06", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "4054491": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "You're so right, of course.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-28_16:55:19", "killed": false, "user_key": "4d5181fc6c785db0af7e6cf72d1a1019", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845088": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "You're tragically misinformed. <br><br>You're saying that a gay identity comes from a set of sexual behaviors?<br><br>That's crazy. Straight people around the world practice the same sexual behaviors lots of folks think of as gay. Are they gay?<br><br>Of course not. Being gay is entirely separately from behavior. Just as with straights, many gays never engage in any sexual behavior at all. <br><br>It's not a matter of gaining an identity through practice of certain behaviors. Are you serious??", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_19:31:48", "killed": false, "user_key": "bigassbelle", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844627, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851749": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "<blockquote><i>I was saying that I am starting to get a strong sense that some of the anti-gay arguments out there have what I would consider to be an unhealthy obsession with sex -- that is, an unhealthy and misdirected obsession with what other people do with our private parts etc.</i></blockquote><br>LOL!!   That always makes me suspicious.   In fact, even within my own thinking...whenever I'm obsessed about anything, it's a sign to me,  that I've got issues.    I think the two groups sort of feed off of each other.   The puritanism of the anti-gays inspire gays to excessively flaunt their sexuality...to be \"seen\"...I mean, I can't think of any other reason for a man to wear only a thong in public.<br><br>Anyway, I agree that there's too much objection ...maybe deep down they sense that their heterosexuality is as tenuous an impulse as they insist gayness is.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_22:09:56", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 17, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851122, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845372": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "My first impulse was to call you you dumb, fucking asshole.   I resisted it.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:05:37", "killed": false, "user_key": "Sombody_took_my_username", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 2, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3844625, "depth": 4, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3842541": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Craig,<br><br>The only reason I can think of (and this is a pure guess) is the timing.  The Supreme Court has two fresh new conservatives in the Court.  My question is who, if anyone, is the swing vote in that Court?<br><br>It might be that activists are simply waiting for the best possible case to come their way.  Kinda like a \"measure twice, cut once\" approach to the gay marriage issue.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_14:57:40", "killed": false, "user_key": "B_Serious", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": true, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3809793, "depth": 1, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851246": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "<i>I am not following this discussion closely because quite frankly the heterosexism/homophobia on display here is starting to wear down my tolerance.</i><br><br>::<br><br>Say it again.<br><br>As for the rest of your comment:<br><br>When I said to one of our resident homophobes that s/he doth protest too much, this is exactly what I meant.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:20:36", "killed": false, "user_key": "CraigHickman", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 6, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851122, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3843056": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Thanks B-Serious. <br><br>Love the post.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_15:52:51", "killed": false, "user_key": "rikyrah", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": true, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3845110": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "aren't you assuming that everyone else is just like you? do you presume that every gay individual made a choice? i expect you're something of a rarity, though certainly not in the fact of a woman getting it on with another woman. that's no big deal. i expect you don't understand precisely because you are <i>not</i> gay, that you simply decided to pursue a lesbian lifestyle.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_19:34:22", "killed": false, "user_key": "bigassbelle", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": false, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 4, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3843319, "depth": 2, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3851255": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Which is so stupid I can't wrap my brain around it. Not you - the idea that I should be denied my rights because I made a righteous choice. Like denying me my civil rights because I'd converted from Conservative to Reform Judaism. Or decided to root for the Red Sox rather than the Yankees. Or switched my major from history to literature. Or decided to be an accountant rather than a librarian. Or became a long distance runner rather than a sprinter.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_21:22:34", "killed": false, "user_key": "313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3850931, "depth": 5, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3889144": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "Craig, the reason I didn't get your initial comment about this is that I wasn't sure I feel it specifically about these people being closeted gay people. I wasn't sure.<br><br>Now as I watch the discussion unfold and reflect more on what I have seen, I am much more of the opinion that the core issue is a pathological relationship with sex itself, and that the gender of the sex partner isn't the issue as much as a horrific way of understanding and experiencing any sort of sex.<br><br>Of course I'm still learning as I go.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-18_21:57:07", "killed": false, "user_key": "4ec3c0272b87ba5c8ce3a9168cf4e78a", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3851879, "depth": 8, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3807737": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": false, "message": "\"Strategy, education and outreach is the path to success.\" I couldn't agree with you more.<br><br>T.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_14:28:27", "killed": false, "user_key": "d6755b31010b50fc47eac9ee8b3bb319", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 0, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3850748": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Me not gay??? Madame, you sully my reputation. Seriously, I assure you I am a Dyke. But maybe I don't understand your idea of the  difference between pursuing a lesbian \"lifestyle\" (for forty years I might add) and being gay?  <br><br>Some queers feel like they've made a choice. Some don't. In my experience,  friends and acquaintances don't discuss it that often because it doesn't matter.  Coming out stories, on the other hand, are always a party favorite.", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_20:24:14", "killed": false, "user_key": "313c8f108b43104806fa6f1472af3f83", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 3, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": 3845110, "depth": 3, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}, "3807743": {"up_voted": false, "ip": "", "has_replies": true, "message": "Blogger \"That Girl Has Issues\" has a great post about sloppy analogies regarding race/slavery and the fight for gay marriage: <a href=\"http://thatgirlhasissues.blogspot.com/2008/11/prop-8-bad-assumptions.html\" rel=\"nofollow\">http://thatgirlhasissues.blogspot.com/2008/11/p...</a>", "is_last_child": false, "can_reply": true, "down_voted": false, "real_date": "2008-11-16_14:29:12", "killed": false, "user_key": "200b12b111a15a1ec02073caaa33378d", "has_been_anonymized": false, "edited": false, "author_is_moderator": false, "from_request_user": null, "votable": true, "date": "1 year ago", "approved": true, "num_replies": 1, "is_first_child": false, "email": "", "parent_post_id": null, "depth": 0, "points": 0, "author_is_creator": false, "is_realtime": false}}, "integration": {"receiver_url": "", "theme": 4, "reply_position": true, "disqus_logo": false}, "timer": {"timer_url": "http://localhost:8005", "thread_id": "7132144", "user_id": "anonymous", "forum_id": "21630", "hash": 7051461730806148527}, "thread": {"days_alive": 0, "slug": "my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism", "paginate": false, "num_pages": 1, "num_posts": 116, "per_page": 0, "total_posts": 0, "realtime_paused": true, "id": 7132144, "queued": false}, "reactions_limit": 10, "context": {"show_reply": true, "use_fb_connect": true, "forum_facebook_key": "bd6a8bc56f8eb204984f34b6fefe228d", "use_yahoo": false, "subscribed": false, "use_twitter_signin": true, "use_openid": false, "realtime_speed": 5000}, "reactions_start": 0, "settings": {"debug": false, "disqus_url": "http://disqus.com", "media_url": "http://media.disqus.com"}, "media_url": "http://media.disqus.com"};
	/* */ this.jsonData.cookie_messages = {"user_created": null, "post_has_profile": null, "post_twitter": null, "post_not_approved": null}; this.jsonData.session = {"url": null, "name": null, "email": null}; /* */

	
	this.curPageId = 'dsq-comments';

	this.frames = {};
};

var disqus_popup_reference = null;

if(typeof DsqLocal == 'undefined') {
	DsqLocal = {};
}



/**
 * Dsq.Strings: UI strings
 */
Dsq.Strings = new function() {
	this.ADD_NEW_COMMENT = "Add New Comment";
	this.LOG_INTO_DISQUS = "Log into DISQUS";
	this.USE_MEDIA = "Use Media";
	this.LOGOUT = "Logout";
	this.SHARING_OPTIONS = "Sharing options";
	this.SHARE_ON = "Share on";
	this.TWEET_THIS_COMMENT = "Tweet this comment";
	this.SHARE_ON_NEWSFEED = "Share on news feed";
	this.SEND_UPDATE_TO_YAHOO = "Send update to Yahoo!";
	this.REBLOG_ON = "Reblog on";
	this.CONFIGURE_OPTIONS = "Configure options";
	this.POST_AS = "Post as";
	this.SORT_BY = "Sort by";
	this.SUBSCRIBE_BY_EMAIL = "Subscribe by email";
	this.SUBSCRIBE_BY_RSS = "Subscribe by RSS";
	this.POPULAR_NOW = "Popular now";
	this.BEST_RATING = "Best Rating";
	this.NEWEST_FIRST = "Newest first";
	this.OLDEST_FIRST = "Oldest first";
	this.HIGHLIGHTED = "Highlighted";
	this.UNSUBSCRIBE = "Unsubscribe";
	this.REQUIRED = "Required";
	this.OPTIONAL = "Optional";
	this.YOU_ARE_COMMENTING_AS_A = "You are commenting as a";
	this.LOGIN_BELOW = "Login below";
	this.PLEASE_LOGIN_BELOW_TO_COMMENT = "Please login below to comment.";
	this.SUBSCRIBE_TO_ALL_COMMENTS_BY_EMAIL = "Subscribe to all comments by email";
	this.DO_NOT_SUBSCRIBE_TO_COMMENTS = "Do not subscribe to comments";
	this.REALTIME_UPDATING_IS = "Real-time updating is";
	this.ENABLED = "enabled";
	this.PAUSED = "paused";
	this.PAUSE = "Pause";
	this.RESUME = "Resume";
	this.SHOW = "Show";
	this.JUST_NOW = "Just now";
	this.REPLY = "Reply";
	this.EDIT = "Edit";
	this.FLAG = "Flag";
	this.MODERATE = "Moderate";
	this.CANCEL = "Cancel";
	this.REPLYING_TO = "Replying to";
	this.REPORT_MISSING_REACTIONS = "Report missing reactions";
	this.POST_A_COMMENT = "Post a comment";
	this.FLAG_INAPPROPRIATE_COMMENT = "Flag inappropriate comment";
	this.FLAGGED = "Flagged";
	this.NO = "No";
	this.YES = "Yes";
	this.NEVER_MIND = "Never mind";
	this.ARE_YOU_SURE_YOU_WOULD_LIKE_TO_REPORT_THIS_COMMENT_TO_A_MODERATOR = "Are you sure you would like to report this comment to a moderator";
	this.THIS_WILL_FLAG_COMMENTS_FOR_MODERATORS_TO_TAKE_ACTION = "This will flag comments for moderators to take action";
	this.TO_RATE_PLEASE_LOG_IN = "To rate, please log in";
	this.JUST_A_MOMENT = "Just a moment...";
	this.GUEST = "Guest";
	this.NAME = "Name";
	this.EMAIL = "Email";
  this.WEBSITE = "Website";
  this.SETTINGS = "Settings";
  this.MODERATOR_OPTIONS = "Moderator options: ";
};
// Dsq.Strings

/**
 * Dsq.FmtStrings: functions that return interpolated UI strings
 */
Dsq.FmtStrings = new function() {
	// Seems we have to use named interpolation for Django to translate. Investigate more.
	this.LOGGED_IN_AS = function(username) {
		return Dsq.Utils.interpolate('Logged in as %(username)s', {username:username});
	};

	this.LOGOUT_FROM = function(disqus) {
		return Dsq.Utils.interpolate('Logout from %(disqus)s', {disqus:disqus});
	};

	this.SHOWING_COMMENTS_FULL = function(total, num) {
		if (num === 1) {
			return Dsq.Utils.interpolate("Showing <span id='dsq-num-posts'>%(num)s</span> of <span id='dsq-total-posts'>%(total)s</span> comment", {num:num, total:total});
		} else {
			return Dsq.Utils.interpolate("Showing <span id='dsq-num-posts'>%(num)s</span> of <span id='dsq-total-posts'>%(total)s</span> comments", {num:num, total:total});
		}
	};

	this.SHOWING_COMMENTS_WITHOUT_PAGINATION = function(num) {
		if (num === 1) {
			return Dsq.Utils.interpolate("Showing <span id='dsq-num-posts'>%(num)s</span> comment", {num:num});
		} else {
			return Dsq.Utils.interpolate("Showing <span id='dsq-num-posts'>%(num)s</span> comments", {num:num});
		}
	};

	this.NUMBER_OF_COMMENTS = function(num) {
		return Dsq.Utils.interpolate(
			(num == 1
				? '%(num)s comment'
				: '%(num)s comments'
			), {num:num});
	};

	this.NUMBER_OF_LIKES = function(num) {
		return Dsq.Utils.interpolate(
			(num == 1
				? '%(num)s like'
				: '%(num)s likes'
			), {num:num});
	};

	this.NUMBER_OF_POINTS = function(num) {
		return Dsq.Utils.interpolate(
			(num == 1
				? '%(num)s point'
				: '%(num)s points'
			), {num:num});
	};
};
// Dsq.FmtStrings





Dsq.CSRF_TOKEN = '3a1994e3330279e78957da82fb64f754';
Dsq.COMMENTS_RE = /(<li.*?id="?dsq-comment-(\d+)"?.*?>)((?:.|\s)*?)(<\/li>)/gim;
Dsq.POST_RE = /(<div.*?id="?dsq-comment-header-(\d+)"?.*?>)((?:.|\s)*?)(<\/div>)\s*(<div.*?class="?dsq-comment-body"?.*?>)((?:.|\s)*)(<\/div>)/gim;
Dsq.POST_BODY_RE = /\s*(<div.*?id="?dsq-comment-message-(\d+)"?.*?>)((?:.|\s)*)(<\/div>)/gim;
// HACK: Safari ends with "-->" while other browsers end with "--&gt;" as expected.
Dsq.MEDIA_POST_RE = /&lt;!--\[(.*?)\]--(?:>|&gt;)/gim;



var FragmentPacket = function(reader, writer, writer_url, is_child, receiveCallback) {
	var that = this;
	this.reader = reader;
	this.writer = writer;
	this.writer_url = writer_url;

	this.is_child = is_child || false;
	this.receiveCallback = receiveCallback;

	this._lastHash = null;

	this._accumMsg = '';

	this._lastSeqno = 0;

	this.MAX_DATA_LEN	= 1024;

	this.WAIT_TIME		= 10;

	this.READY		= 0x1;
	this.WRITING	= 0x2;
	this.FIN		= 0x4;
	this.ACK		= 0x8;

};

FragmentPacket.prototype.createListener = function() {
	var that = this;
	var listener = function() {
		that.recv();
	};
	return window.setInterval(listener, 10);
};

FragmentPacket.prototype.log = function(msg) {



};

FragmentPacket.prototype.recv = function() {
	var hash;
	if (/MSIE/.test(navigator.userAgent)) {

		hash = this.reader.name;
	} else {

		var hashIndex = this.reader.location.href.indexOf('#');
		if (hashIndex == -1) {
			return;
		}
		hash = this.reader.location.href.substring(hashIndex+1);
	}
	var flags = parseInt(hash.substring(0, 4), 10);
	var seqno = parseInt(hash.substring(4, 24), 10);
	var data  = hash.substring(24);

	if (this._lastHash !== hash) {
		this._lastHash = hash;
		this.log('recv: ' + hash);

		this.log(' flags: ' + flags);
		this.log(' seqno: ' + seqno + ' len: ' + hash.substring(4, 24).length + ' (' + hash.substring(4, 24) + ')');
		this.log(' data: ' + data + ' len: ' + data.length);

		this._lastSeqno = seqno;

		if (flags & this.WRITING) {
			this._accumMsg += data;
			this.sendFlag(this.ACK, seqno);
			if (flags & this.FIN) {
				this.log('recv finished: ' + decodeURIComponent(this._accumMsg));
				this.receiveCallback(decodeURIComponent(this._accumMsg));

				this._accumMsg = '';

				this.sendFlag(this.READY | this.ACK, this._lastSeqno);
			}
		}
	}

	return {
		flags: flags,
		seqno: seqno,
		data: data
	};
};

FragmentPacket.prototype.sendRawPacket = function(packet) {
	if (/MSIE/.test(navigator.userAgent)) {
		this.writer.name = packet;
	} else {

		this.writer.location.href = this.writer_url + '#' + packet;
	}

};

FragmentPacket.prototype.sendFlag = function(flag, seqno) {
	this.sendRawPacket(this._zerofill(flag, 4) + this._zerofill(seqno, 20));
};

FragmentPacket.prototype.send = function(msg) {
	this._send(0, encodeURIComponent(msg));
};

FragmentPacket.prototype._send = function(packetNum, msg) {
	var that = this;
	var recvBuf = this.recv();

	if (packetNum === 0) {

		if (!(recvBuf.flags & this.READY)) {
			this.log('client is not ready, waiting...');
			window.setTimeout(function() { that._send(packetNum, msg); }, this.WAIT_TIME);
			return;
		}
	} else {

		if (!( (recvBuf.flags & this.ACK) && (recvBuf.seqno === this._lastSeqno) )) {
			this.log('waiting for ack from client...');
			window.setTimeout(function() { that._send(packetNum, msg); }, this.WAIT_TIME);
			return;
		} else {
			this.log('received ack: ' + this._lastSeqno + ' ' + recvBuf.seqno);
		}
	}

	var flags = this.WRITING;
	var num_packets = Math.ceil(msg.length / this.MAX_DATA_LEN);
	this.log('num_packets: ' + num_packets);

	if (num_packets === packetNum) {

		this.log('message successfully sent!');
		this.sendFlag(this.READY | this.ACK, this._lastSeqno);
		return true;
	}

	this._lastSeqno++;

	if (packetNum == num_packets-1) {
		flags |= this.FIN;
	}

	var data = msg.substring(packetNum * this.MAX_DATA_LEN, (packetNum+1) * this.MAX_DATA_LEN);
	var packet = this._zerofill(flags, 4) + this._zerofill(this._lastSeqno, 20) + data;

	this.log('sending raw packet: ' + packet);
	this.sendRawPacket(packet);

	return this._send(packetNum + 1, msg);
};

FragmentPacket.prototype._zerofill = function(num, width) {
	var retval = num.toString();
	var retval_len = retval.length;
	for (var i = 0; i < width - retval_len; i++) {
		retval = '0' + retval;
	}
	return retval;
};

var PostMessagePacket = function(receiver, receiveCallback, id, receiverId) {
	var that = this;
	this.receiver = receiver;
	this.receiveCallback = receiveCallback;
	this.id = id;


	this.receiverId = receiverId;
};

PostMessagePacket.prototype.createListener = function() {
	var that = this;

	var listener = function(e) {

		if (!that.id) {
			that.id = e.data;
			return;
		}


		var id = e.data.split(';')[0];
		if (id !== that.id) {
			return;
		}
		var data = e.data.substring(e.data.indexOf(';') + 1);

		that.receiveCallback(data);
	};

	if (typeof window.attachEvent == 'function') {
		window.attachEvent('onmessage', listener);
	} else if (typeof window.addEventListener == 'function') {
		window.addEventListener('message', listener, false);
	} else {
		throw new Error('No method found to create event listener for PostMessagePacket.');
	}
};

PostMessagePacket.prototype.send = function(msg) {



	var needs_reget = false;
	try {
		if (typeof this.receiver.id == 'undefined' || typeof this.receiver.postMessage == 'undefined') {
			needs_reget = true;
		}
	} catch(e) {


	}
	if (needs_reget && typeof this.receiverId != 'undefined') {
		this.receiver = document.getElementById(this.receiverId).contentWindow;
	}

	var packet;
	if (!msg) {

		packet = this.id;
	} else {
		packet = this.id + ';' + msg;
	}
	this.receiver.postMessage(packet, '*');
};

PostMessagePacket._last_unique_id = null;
PostMessagePacket._get_unique_id = function() {
	var id = (new Date()).getTime();
	if (id == PostMessagePacket._last_unique_id) {
		id++;
	}
	PostMessagePacket._last_unique_id = id;
	return id.toString();
};

var JsonRpc = function() {

	this.ids = {};

	this.objectToJSON = function(obj) {
		var json = '';
		var results = [];

		if (obj === undefined || obj === null) {
			return 'null';
		}

		switch (obj.constructor) {
			case Object:
				for (var property in obj) {
					if (obj.hasOwnProperty(property)) {
						results.push(this.objectToJSON(property) + ': ' + this.objectToJSON(obj[property]));
					}
				}
				json = '{' + results.join(', ') + '}';
				break;
			case Array:
				for (var i = 0; i < obj.length; i++) {
					results.push(this.objectToJSON(obj[i]));
				}
				json = '[' + results.join(', ') + ']';
				break;
			case Number:
			case Boolean:
				json = obj.toString();
				break;
			case String:

				var specialChars = {'\b': '\\b', '\t': '\\t', '\n': '\\n', '\f': '\\f', '\r': '\\r', '\\': '\\\\'};

				json = obj.replace(/[\x00-\x1f\\]/g, function(match) {
					var ch = specialChars[match];
					return ch ? ch : '\\u00' + match.charCodeAt().toPaddedString(2, 16);
				});

				json = '"' + json.replace(/"/g, '\\"') + '"';
				break;
			default:

				json = 'null';
				break;
		}

		return json;
	};

	this.createHandler = function(send_func, registered_funcs) {
		var that = this;
		var handler = function(message) {

			try {
				var rpc = eval('(' + message + ')');
			} catch(e) {
				alert('bad JSON: ' + message);
				return;
			}
			if (rpc.method) {

				if (!registered_funcs[rpc.method]) {
					return;
				}

				var retval = registered_funcs[rpc.method].apply(null, rpc.params);
				if (rpc.id) {
					var response = {
						result: retval,
						error: null,	// TODO
						id: rpc.id
					};
					send_func(that.objectToJSON(response));
				}
			} else if(rpc.result) {

				if (!that.ids[rpc.id]) {
					return;
				}

				that.ids[rpc.id](rpc.result);
				delete that.ids[rpc.id];
			}
		};
		return handler;
	};

	this.execute = function(send_func, method, params, response_callback) {
		response_callback = response_callback || null;
		var id = (response_callback) ? (new Date()).getTime() : null;

		var request = {
			method: method,
			params: params,
			id: id
		};

		send_func(this.objectToJSON(request));

		if (id) {
			this.ids[id] = response_callback;
		}
	};
};
JsonRpc = new JsonRpc();

var ParentMessenger = function(childUrl, receiverUrl, container, receiveCallback) {


	if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Safari') >= 0 && parseInt(navigator.userAgent.substring(navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Version/') + 8), 10) == 3) {
		throw new Error("unsupported.");
	} else if (window.opera) {
		throw new Error("unsupported.");
	}



	if (!receiverUrl &&
		navigator.userAgent.indexOf('Gecko') >= 0 &&
		parseFloat(navigator.userAgent.slice(navigator.userAgent.indexOf('rv:') + 3, navigator.userAgent.indexOf('rv:') + 6)) < 1.9) {
		throw new Error("unsupported.");
	}


	if (/msie/i.test(navigator.userAgent) && !/opera/i.test(navigator.userAgent)) {


		if (document.domain == window.location.hostname) {
			receiverUrl = '';
		}
	}

	var that = this;
	this.childUrl = childUrl;
	this.receiverUrl = receiverUrl;
	this.container = container || document.body;

	this.packetHandler = null;


	this._ready = false;
	this._error = false;


	var _createReceiverForFragmentPacket = function() {

		that.receiver = document.createElement('iframe');
		that.receiver.src = receiverUrl;
		that.receiver.id = 'receiver_' + (new Date()).getTime();
		that.receiver.name = that.receiver.id;

		that.receiver.frameBorder = '0';
		that.receiver.frameSpacing = '0';
		that.receiver.style.borderStyle = 'none';

		var receiver_onload = function() {
			var receiver = document.getElementById(that.receiver.id).contentWindow;

			try {
				receiver.document.body.innerHTML = '';
			} catch(e) {

				that._error = true;
			}
			receiver.document.body.style.padding = '0px';
			receiver.document.body.style.margin = '0px';

			var child = receiver.document.createElement('iframe');
			child.id = 'child';
			child.name = 'child';
			child.src = that.childUrl;

			child.frameBorder = '0';
			child.frameSpacing = '0';
			child.style.borderStyle = 'none';
			child.style.width = '100%';
			child.style.height = '100%';
			receiver.document.body.appendChild(child);

			that.child = receiver.document.getElementById('child').contentWindow;
			that.receiver = receiver;

			that.packetHandler = new FragmentPacket(that.receiver, that.child, that.childUrl, false, receiveCallback);

			that._listener = that.packetHandler.createListener();

			that.packetHandler.sendFlag(that.packetHandler.READY, 0);

			that._ready = true;
		};

		that.receiver.onreadystatechange = function() {
			if (this.readyState == 'complete') {
				receiver_onload();
			}
		};

		that.receiver.onload = receiver_onload;







		if (Dsq.Utils.ie) {
			if (that.container.clientWidth === 0) {

				var _waitForWidth = function() {
					if (that.container.clientWidth > 0) {
						Dsq.Utils.fixIframesIE(that.container.id);
					} else {
						window.setTimeout(_waitForWidth, 100);
					}
				};
				_waitForWidth();

				that._once = false;
				that.receiver.onresize = function() {
					if (!that._once) {
						Dsq.Utils.fixIframesIE(that.container.id);
					}
					that._once = true;
				};
			}
		}

		that.container.appendChild(that.receiver);
	};


	var _createReceiverForPostMessage = function() {

		var receiver_onload = function() {

			that.packetHandler.send();
			that._ready = true;
		};

		var id = PostMessagePacket._get_unique_id();
		var receiverId = 'child_' + id;


		ParentMessenger['_receiver_onload_' + receiverId] = receiver_onload;

		that.container.innerHTML += '<iframe ' +
			'src="' + childUrl + '" ' +
			'id="' + receiverId + '" ' +
			'name="' + receiverId + '" ' +
			'onload="ParentMessenger._receiver_onload_' + receiverId +'();" ' +
			'></iframe>';

		that.receiver = document.getElementById(receiverId).contentWindow;
		that.packetHandler = new PostMessagePacket(that.receiver, receiveCallback, id, receiverId);
		that._listener = that.packetHandler.createListener();
	};

	if (typeof window.postMessage == 'function') {
		_createReceiverForPostMessage();
	} else {
		_createReceiverForFragmentPacket();
	}

};

ParentMessenger.prototype.sendMessage = function(message) {
	var that = this;
	if (!this._ready) {

		window.setTimeout(function() { that.sendMessage(message); }, 10);
		return;
	}
	this.packetHandler.send(message);
	return true;
};

Dsq.NewFrames = function(url) {
	this.url = url;
};

Dsq.NewFrames.prototype.init = function(onFailure) {
	var that = this;

	try {
		this.messenger = new ParentMessenger(this.url, Dsq.jsonData.integration.receiver_url, this.container, this.receive_callback);
	} catch(e) {
		if (typeof onFailure == 'function') {
			onFailure();
		}
	}

	if (typeof onFailure == 'function') {
		var iId = window.setInterval(function() {
			if (typeof that.messenger == 'undefined') {
				window.clearInterval(iId);
				return;
			}
			if (that.messenger._ready) {
				window.clearInterval(iId);
			} else if (that.messenger._error) {
				window.clearInterval(iId);
				onFailure();
			}
		}, 10);
	}
};

Dsq.NewFrames.prototype._execute = function(method, args, callback) {
	var that = this;
	if (typeof that.messenger == 'undefined') {
		return false;
	}
	JsonRpc.execute(
		function(msg) { that.messenger.sendMessage(msg); },
		method,
		args || [],
		callback);
	return true;
};

Dsq.ReplyFrame = function(container, parent_post_id) {
	var that = this;
	this.container = container;
	this.parent_post_id = parent_post_id;

	var sendFunc = function(msg) {

		Dsq.Debug.log('Dsq.ReplyFrame.sendFunc');
		that.messenger.sendMessage(msg);
	};


	var postComment_onSuccess = function(response) {
		Dsq.jsonData.posts[response.message.id] = response.message.post_meta;
		if (!Dsq.jsonData.users[response.message.post_meta.user_key]) {
			Dsq.jsonData.users[response.message.post_meta.user_key] = response.message.user_meta;
		}


		var reply_position = (typeof(disqus_insert_wrt_sort) == 'undefined' 
			? (Dsq.jsonData.forum.reply_position ? -1 : null) 
			: (Dsq.jsonData.request.sort == 2 ? null : -1));
		
		if (response.message.post_meta.approved) {
			Dsq.Post.insert(response.message.post_meta.parent_post_id || reply_position, response.message.id, response.message.post_meta.message);
		}

		Dsq.Templates.postComment_onSuccess(response, parent_post_id, response.message.id);
	};

	var postComment_onFailure = function(response) {
		Dsq.Popup.popModal(response.message, 'Error');
		Dsq.Templates.postComment_onFailure(response, parent_post_id, response.message.id);
	};

	var editComment_onSuccess = function(response) {
		var post_id = parent_post_id;
		var message = Dsq.$('dsq-comment-message-' + post_id);
		
		message.innerHTML = response.message;
		Dsq.Templates.toggleEdit(post_id);
		Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(false);
	};
	
	var editComment_onFailure = function(response) {
		var post_id = parent_post_id;
		
		Dsq.Popup.popModal('Sorry, there was an error editing this comment.', 'Edit Error');
		Dsq.Templates.toggleEdit(post_id);
		Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(false);
	};

	var getUserByEmail_onSuccess = function(response) {
		var msg = response.message;
		var fields = Dsq.Templates.getFormFields(parent_post_id);

		if (msg.username) {

			Dsq.Templates.lightboxAuthenticate(parent_post_id, 'login', {
				'username': msg.username,
				'display_name': msg.display_name,
				'avatar_url': msg.avatar_url,
				'verified': msg.verified,
				'email': fields.email.value
			});
		} else {

			Dsq.Templates.lightboxAuthenticate(parent_post_id, 'register');
		}
	};

	var validateAuth_onSuccess = function(response, auth_choice) {
		Dsq.Templates.postComment(parent_post_id, null, true, auth_choice);
	};

	var validateAuth_onFailure = function(response, auth_choice) {
		var pid = parent_post_id ? '-' + parent_post_id : '';
		var msg = response.message;

		if (auth_choice == 'register') {
			var fields = ['email', 'username', 'password'];

			for (var i = 0; i < fields.length; i++) {
				var field = fields[i];
				var errorDiv = Dsq.$('dsq-' + field + '-errors' + pid);

				if (msg[field]) {
					errorDiv.innerHTML = msg[field];
				} else {
					errorDiv.innerHTML = '';
				}
			}
		} else if (auth_choice == 'login') {
			Dsq.$('dsq-lightbox-errors' + pid).innerHTML = '<p>We couldn\'t log you in. Please verify your login.</p>';
		}
		
		Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(false);
	};

	this.receive_callback = JsonRpc.createHandler(sendFunc, {
		'postComment.onSuccess': postComment_onSuccess,
		'postComment.onFailure': postComment_onFailure,
		'editComment.onSuccess': editComment_onSuccess,
		'editComment.onFailure': editComment_onFailure,		
		'getUserByEmail.onSuccess': getUserByEmail_onSuccess,
		'validateAuth.onSuccess': validateAuth_onSuccess,
		'validateAuth.onFailure': validateAuth_onFailure,
		'reload': function() { window.location.reload(); }
	});

	this.url = Dsq.Urls.REPLY +
		'?' + (new Date()).getTime() +
		'&f=jackandjillpolitics' +
		'&t=my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism' +
		'&ff=' + Dsq.Thread.ff +
		'&default_text=' + disqus_default_text +
		'&ifrs=' + encodeURIComponent(disqus_iframe_css);
	if (this.parent_post_id) {
		this.url += '&parent_post=' + this.parent_post_id;
	}
};

Dsq.ReplyFrame.prototype = new Dsq.NewFrames(Dsq.ReplyFrame.url);

Dsq.ReplyFrame.prototype.post = function(author_name, author_email, author_url, authenticate, sharing_services, subscribe) {
	this._execute('postComment', [author_name, author_email, author_url, authenticate, sharing_services, subscribe]);
};

Dsq.ReplyFrame.prototype.edit = function(post_id, message) {
	this._execute('editComment', [post_id, message]);
};

Dsq.ReplyFrame.prototype.setState = function(parent_post_id, depth) {
	this._execute('setState', [parent_post_id, depth]);
};

Dsq.ReplyFrame.prototype.getUserByEmail = function(email) {
	this._execute('getUserByEmail', [email]);
};

Dsq.ReplyFrame.prototype.validateAuth = function(auth_choice, email, username, password) {
	this._execute('validateAuth', [auth_choice, email, username, password]);
};

Dsq.ReplyFrame.prototype.authenticateFacebook = function(session, forum_url) {
	this._execute('authenticateFacebook', [session, forum_url]);
};

	Dsq.Facebook = function() {
	var that = this;

	var handleSessionData = function(session) {

		var forum_url = Dsq.jsonData.forum.url;




		if (typeof disqus_facebook_forum != 'undefined') {
			forum_url = disqus_facebook_forum;
		}
		Dsq.frames.reply_0.authenticateFacebook(session, forum_url);
	};

	var onLogin = function() {
		FB.Connect.getSignedPublicSessionData(handleSessionData);
	};

	this.login = function() {
		FB.Connect.requireSession(onLogin, true);
	};
};
Dsq.Facebook = new Dsq.Facebook();


	






Dsq.Themes = {};

Dsq.Themes.narcissus = new function() {
	this.addPostContainer = 'dsq-form-area';
	this.textareaContainer = 'dsq-textarea-wrapper';



	
	this.header = function() {
		var comments_count, total_posts, num_posts;
		var html = '';
		var missing_perm_tmpl;

		if (Dsq.jsonData.request.missing_perm) {
			missing_perm_tmpl = Dsq.Templates.missingPermissions();
			if (missing_perm_tmpl) {
				html += '<div class="dsq-missing-permissions">' + missing_perm_tmpl + '</div>';
			}
		}

		total_posts = Dsq.jsonData.thread.total_posts;
		num_posts = Dsq.jsonData.thread.num_posts;

		if (total_posts) {
			comments_count = Dsq.FmtStrings.SHOWING_COMMENTS_FULL(total_posts, num_posts);
		} else {
			comments_count = Dsq.FmtStrings.SHOWING_COMMENTS_WITHOUT_PAGINATION(num_posts);
		}

		html += ' \
		<div id="dsq-comments-title"> \
			<h3>' + comments_count + '</h3> \
		</div> \
		';

		html += ' \
		<div class="dsq-options"> \
			<span class="dsq-item-sort">'
				+ Dsq.Strings.SORT_BY + ' \
				<select id="dsq-sort-select" onchange="Dsq.Thread.sortBy(this.value);"> \
					<option value="hot" ' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.sort == 4 ? 'selected="selected"' : '') + '>' + Dsq.Strings.POPULAR_NOW + '</option> \
					<option value="best" ' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.sort == 3 ? 'selected="selected"' : '') + '>' + Dsq.Strings.BEST_RATING + '</option> \
					<option value="newest" ' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.sort == 2 ? 'selected="selected"' : '') + '>' + Dsq.Strings.NEWEST_FIRST + '</option> \
					<option value="oldest" ' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.sort == 1 ? 'selected="selected"' : '') + '>' + Dsq.Strings.OLDEST_FIRST + '</option> \
				</select> \
				&nbsp; \
			</span> \
			<span class="dsq-subscribe-email"> \
				<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/email.png" style="width:12px;height:12px;vertical-align:middle"> \
				<span id="dsq-subscribe">'
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.context.subscribed
						? '<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Thread.subscribe(0); return false">' + Dsq.Strings.UNSUBSCRIBE + '</a>'
						: '<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Thread.subscribe(1); return false">' + Dsq.Strings.SUBSCRIBE_BY_EMAIL + '</a>')
				+ '</span> \
			</span> \
			<span class="dsq-subscribe-rss" style="width:12px;height:12px;vertical-align:middle"> \
				<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/bullet-feed.png" alt="" /> \
				<a href="http://jackandjillpolitics.disqus.com/my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism/latest.rss">' + Dsq.Strings.SUBSCRIBE_BY_RSS + '</a> \
			</span> \
		</div> \
		';

		
		

		return html;

	};
	
	this.footer = function() {
		var html = '';

		html += Dsq.Templates.pagination();

		
		
			html += Dsq.Templates.realtime();
			html += Dsq.Templates.showThreadSettings();
			html += Dsq.Templates.postBox();

		html += Dsq.Templates.reactions();

		
			html += Dsq.Templates.trackbacks();
		


		if (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_global_moderator) {
 			html += ' \
				<div class="dsq-global-moderator-extras">'
					+ '<strong>shortname:</strong> ' + Dsq.jsonData.forum.url
					+ '<strong>thread id:</strong> ' + Dsq.jsonData.thread.id
					+ '<strong>thread slug:</strong> ' + Dsq.jsonData.thread.slug
				+ '</div> \
			';
		}

		return html;
	};
	
	this.realtime = function() {
		var html = '';
		
		if (Dsq.jsonData.realtime_enabled) {
			html += '<div id="dsq-realtime-options" class="dsq-options">'
					 + Dsq.Strings.REALTIME_UPDATING_IS + ' <strong id="dsq-realtime-status" style="text-transform: lowercase">' + Dsq.Strings.ENABLED + '</strong>. \
					 <a href="#" id="dsq-realtime-toggle" style="text-transform: capitalize"></a> \
					</div>';
		}

		if (!Dsq.jsonData.forum.streaming_realtime) {
			html += ' \
				<div style="display: none" id="dsq-realtime-alert" class="dsq-realtime-alert"><span id="dsq-realtime-queued"></span> <a href="#" id="dsq-realtime-show"></a></div> \
			';
		}
		
		return html;
	};

	this.showThreadSettings = function() {
		if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator) {
			return '';
		}

		html = '<div id="dsq-thread-settings" class="dsq-thread-settings">' + Dsq.Strings.MODERATOR_OPTIONS;
		html += '<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Thread.showSettings(); return false;">' + Dsq.Strings.SETTINGS + '</a>';
		if (Dsq.jsonData.forum.reactions_enabled && Dsq.jsonData.reactions.length === 0) {
			html += '<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Reaction.reportMissingReactions(); return false;">'
						+ Dsq.Strings.REPORT_MISSING_REACTIONS
						+ '</a>';
		}
		html +='</div>';

		return html;
	};

	this.postBox = function(post_id, use_fallback_iframe) {


		var html;
		var display_sharing_options = Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated;

		if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated && Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled && !Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post) {
			return '';
		}
		
		if (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote) {


			if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.hasOwnProperty(Dsq.jsonData.request.remote_domain)) {
				display_sharing_options = false;
			}
		}
		
		if (post_id) {
			var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
			var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_meta.user_key];				
		}
		
		var pid = post_id ? '-' + post_id : '';

		var _requestUserInfo = function() {
			var html;



			var user_has_email = false;

			html = '<div class="dsq-request-user-info"> <!-- // If authenticated --> \
				<a href="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + Dsq.Urls.LOGOUT + '?ctkn=' + Dsq.CSRF_TOKEN + '" class="dsq-request-user-logout">' + Dsq.Strings.LOGOUT + '</a> \
				<table> \
					<tr> \
						<td rowspan="2">'
							+ (!Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled ? '<a href="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + Dsq.Urls.REQUEST_USER_PROFILE + '">' : '')
								+ '<img src="' + Dsq.Urls.REQUEST_USER_AVATAR + '" width="48" height="48" class="dsq-request-user-avatar">'
							+ (!Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled ? '</a>' : '')
						+ '</td> \
						<td class="dsq-request-user-name">'
								+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote
									 ? '<span class="dsq-badge-small dsq-badge-' + Dsq.jsonData.request.remote_domain + '">' + Dsq.jsonData.request.remote_domain + '</span>'
									 : (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_verified
											? '<span class="dsq-badge-small dsq-badge-verified">Verified</span>'
											: '<span class="dsq-badge-small dsq-badge-registered">Registered</span>'))
							+ (!Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled ? ' <a href="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + Dsq.Urls.REQUEST_USER_PROFILE + '">' : '') 
								+ Dsq.jsonData.request.display_username 
							+ (!Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled ? '</a>' : '')
							+  (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote && user_has_email ? ' <small>(<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.remoteAccountSettings(); return false;">change settings</a>)</small>' : '')
							+  (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote && !Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled ? ' <small>(<a href="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/profile/info/" target="_blank">change name</a> or <a href="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/profile/avatar/" target="_blank">picture</a>)</small>' : '')
						+ '</td> \
					</tr> \
					<tr> \
						<td class="dsq-request-user-stats"> \
							<span><big>' + Dsq.jsonData.request.comments_count + '</big> ' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.comments_count == 1 ? 'comment' : 'comments') + '</span> \
							<span><big>' + Dsq.jsonData.request.likes_count + '</big> ' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.likes_count == 1 ? 'like' : 'likes') + '</span> \
							<span><big>' + Dsq.jsonData.request.points + '</big> ' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.points == 1 ? 'point' : 'points') + '</span> \
						</td> \
					</tr> \
				</table> \
			</div> \
			';
			return html;
		};

		var _loginOptions = function() {
			var html;
			html = ' \
			<div class="dsq-authenticate"> \
				<p class="dsq-autheneticate-copy">'
				+ (Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post
					? Dsq.Strings.YOU_ARE_COMMENTING_AS_A + ' <a class="dsq-help" title="Click for more information" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.helpBadges(); return false">Guest</a>. ' + Dsq.Strings.OPTIONAL + ': ' + Dsq.Strings.LOGIN_BELOW + '.'
					: Dsq.Strings.REQUIRED + ': ' + Dsq.Strings.PLEASE_LOGIN_BELOW_TO_COMMENT + '.')
				+ '</p> \
				<ul class="dsq-login-buttons">'
					+ (!Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled ? '<li class="dsq-login-button"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.login(); return false"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/themes/narcissus/login-disqus.gif" /></a></li>' : '')
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.context.use_fb_connect ? '<li class="dsq-login-button"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Facebook.login(); return false;"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/themes/narcissus/login-facebook.gif" /></a></li>' : '')
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.context.use_twitter_signin ? '<li class="dsq-login-button"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Twitter.startTwitterConnect(); return false"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/themes/narcissus/login-twitter.gif" /></a></li>' : '')
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.context.use_openid ? '<li class="dsq-login-button"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.OpenID.requestURL(); return false" ><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/themes/narcissus/login-openid.gif" /></a></li>' : '')
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.context.use_yahoo ? '<li class="dsq-login-button"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Yahoo.startYahooConnect(); return false"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/themes/narcissus/login-yahoo.gif" /></a></li>' : '')
				+ '</ul> \
			</div> \
			';
			return html;
		};

		if (!Dsq.jsonData.context.show_reply) {


			if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated) {



				return '<div id="dsq-form-area" style="display:none"><div id="dsq-textarea-wrapper"></div></div>' + _loginOptions();
			} else {
				return '';
			}
		}

		html = ' \
		<div id="' + (post_id 
			? 'dsq-reply-post-' + post_id
			: 'dsq-new-post')
		 	+ '" class="dsq-post-area"> \
			<div class="dsq-dc-logo"> \
				<a href="http://disqus.com/comments" target="_blank"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/themes/narcissus/disqus-logo.png"></a> \
			</div>'
			+ (post_id 
				? '<h3>' + Dsq.Strings.REPLYING_TO + ' ' + userData.display_name + '</h3>'
				: '<h3>' + Dsq.Strings.ADD_NEW_COMMENT + '</h3>')
			+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated 
				? _requestUserInfo()
				: _loginOptions() )
			+ '<div id="dsq-form-area' + pid + '">'
			+ '<div class="dsq-textarea"> \
				<div class="dsq-textarea-wrapper" id="dsq-textarea-wrapper' + pid + '"></div> \
			</div>'
			+ (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated
			? ' \
			<div class="dsq-post-fields"> \
				<form action="." method="GET" onsubmit="Dsq.Templates.postComment(' + post_id + ', this, false); return false;"> \
				<table> \
					<tr> \
						<td class="dsq-post-fields-left"><div class="dsq-input-wrapper"><input id="dsq-field-name' + pid + '" type="text" value="' + (disqus_def_name ? disqus_def_name : (Dsq.jsonData.session.name ? Dsq.jsonData.session.name : Dsq.Strings.NAME + '" class="dsq-placeholder')) + '" onfocus="Dsq.Templates.handlePlaceholder(event, this, \'name\')" onblur="Dsq.Templates.handlePlaceholder(event, this, \'name\')" /></div></td> \
						<td class="dsq-post-fields-right"><div class="dsq-input-wrapper"><input id="dsq-field-website' + pid + '" type="text" value="' + (Dsq.jsonData.session.url ? Dsq.jsonData.session.url : Dsq.Strings.WEBSITE + ' (' + Dsq.Strings.OPTIONAL.toLowerCase() + ')" class="dsq-placeholder') + '" onfocus="Dsq.Templates.handlePlaceholder(event, this, \'website\')" onblur="Dsq.Templates.handlePlaceholder(event, this, \'website\')" /></div></td> \
					</tr> \
					<tr> \
						<td class="dsq-post-fields-left"><div class="dsq-input-wrapper"><input id="dsq-field-email' + pid + '" type="text" value="' + (disqus_def_email ? disqus_def_email : (Dsq.jsonData.session.email ? Dsq.jsonData.session.email : Dsq.Strings.EMAIL + '" class="dsq-placeholder')) + '" onfocus="Dsq.Templates.handlePlaceholder(event, this, \'email\')" onblur="Dsq.Templates.handlePlaceholder(event, this, \'email\')" /></div></td> \
						<td class="dsq-post-fields-right"> \
							<div class="dsq-subscribe"> \
								<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Templates.chooseSubscribe(' + post_id + '); return false" class="dsq-subscribe-menu"><span id="dsq-subscribe-select' + pid + '">' + (Dsq.jsonData.request.subscribe_on_post ? Dsq.Strings.SUBSCRIBE_TO_ALL_COMMENTS_BY_EMAIL : Dsq.Strings.DO_NOT_SUBSCRIBE_TO_COMMENTS) + '</span> <small>&#9660;</small></a> \
								<ul class="dsq-panel" id="dsq-subscribe-menu' + pid + '"> \
									<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Templates.setSubscribe(2, this, ' + post_id + '); return false">Subscribe to all comments by email</a></li> \
									<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Templates.setSubscribe(0, this, ' + post_id + '); return false">Do not subscribe to comments</a></li> \
								</ul> \
								<input id="dsq-subscribe-on-post' + pid + '" type="hidden" value="' + Dsq.jsonData.request.subscribe_on_post + '" /> \
							</div> \
						</td> \
					</tr> \
				</table> \
				</form> \
			</div>'
			: '')
			+ '<div class="dsq-post-footer"> \
				<div class="dsq-sharing-options" ' + (!display_sharing_options ? 'style="display:none;"' : '') + '> \
					<button class="dsq-button-small" onfocus="document.getElementById(\'dsq-post-button' + pid + '\').focus();"><span>' + Dsq.Strings.SHARING_OPTIONS + ' <small>&#9660;</small></span></button> \
					<div class="dsq-panel"> '
						+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.twitter !== undefined
								&& Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.twitter.enabled === true
							? '<div><input type="checkbox" id="dsq-sharing-twitter' + pid + '"'
								  + (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.twitter.auto === true ? 'checked=true' : '') + '/> \
									<label for="dsq-sharing-twitter' + pid + '">' + Dsq.Strings.SHARE_ON + ' Twitter</label> \
								 </div>'
							: '')
						+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.facebook
								&& (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.facebook.enabled === true ||
										(Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote && Dsq.jsonData.request.remote_domain == 'facebook'))
							? '<div><input type="checkbox" id="dsq-sharing-facebook' + pid + '"'
									+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.facebook.auto === true ? 'checked=true' : '') + '/> \
									<label for="dsq-sharing-facebook' + pid + '">' + Dsq.Strings.SHARE_ON + ' Facebook</label> \
								 </div>'
							: '')
						+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.yahoo !== undefined
								&& Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.yahoo.enabled === true
							? '<div><input type="checkbox" id="dsq-sharing-yahoo' + pid + '"'
									+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.yahoo.auto === true ? 'checked=true' : '') + '/> \
									<label for="dsq-sharing-yahoo' + pid + '">' + Dsq.Strings.SHARE_ON + ' Yahoo!</label> \
								</div>'
							: '')
						+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.tumblr !== undefined
								&& Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.tumblr.enabled === true
							? '<div><input type="checkbox" id="dsq-sharing-tumblr' + pid + '"'
									+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.tumblr.auto === true ? 'checked=true' : '') + '/> \
									<label for="dsq-sharing-tumblr' + pid + '">' + Dsq.Strings.SHARE_ON + ' Tumblr</label> \
								 </div>'
							: '')
						+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.wordpress !== undefined
								&& Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.wordpress.enabled === true
							? '<div><input type="checkbox" id="dsq-sharing-wordpress' + pid + '"'
									+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.wordpress.auto === true ? 'checked=true' : '') + '/> \
									<label for="dsq-sharing-wordpress' + pid + '">' + Dsq.Strings.SHARE_ON + ' Wordpress</label> \
								 </div>'
							: '')
						+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.movabletype !== undefined
							  && Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.movabletype.enabled === true
							? '<div><input type="checkbox" id="dsq-sharing-movabletype' + pid + '"'
									+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.movabletype.auto === true ? 'checked=true' : '') + '/> \
									<label for="dsq-sharing-movabletype' + pid + '">' + Dsq.Strings.SHARE_ON + ' Movable Type</label> \
							   </div>'
							: '')
						+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.typepad !== undefined
							  && Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.typepad.enabled === true
							? '<div><input type="checkbox" id="dsq-sharing-typepad' + pid + '"'
									+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.sharing.typepad.auto === true ? 'checked=true' : '') + '/> \
								  <label for="dsq-sharing-typepad' + pid + '">' + Dsq.Strings.SHARE_ON + ' TypePad</label> \
							   </div>'
							: '')
						+ '<div><a href="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/profile/connections/" target="_blank" class="dsq-configure-options">' + Dsq.Strings.CONFIGURE_OPTIONS + '</a></div>'
					+ '</div> \
				</div>'
				+ '<button class="dsq-button" id="dsq-post-button' + pid + '" onclick="Dsq.Templates.postComment(' + post_id + ', this, false)"><span>' + Dsq.Strings.POST_AS + ' '
				+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.display_username
					? Dsq.jsonData.request.display_username
					: Dsq.Strings.GUEST)
				+ '</span></button>'
				+ (post_id
					? '<button class="dsq-button" id="dsq-cancel-button' + pid + '" onclick="Dsq.Post.toggleReply(' + post_id +', this)"><span>' + Dsq.Strings.CANCEL + '</span></button>'
					: '')
			+ '</div>'
			+ '</div>' // end dsq-form-area
		+ '</div> \
		';
		
		return html;
	};




	this.appendPost = function(post_id) {
		var html = '<div id="dsq-append-post-' + post_id + '"></div>';
		return html;
	};

	this.postPrependHeader = function(post_id) {
		var html;
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_meta.user_key];
		
		html = ' \
		<table> \
			<tr> \
				<td id="dsq-header-avatar-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-header-avatar" onmouseover="Dsq.Post.dropProfile(' + post_id + ')"> \
					<a id="dsq-avatar-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-avatar" href="' + userData.url + '" onclick="Dsq.Popup.popProfile(' + post_id + '); return false;">'
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.forum.show_avatar
					? '<img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.users[_meta.user_key].avatar + '" alt="" />'
					: '')
				+ '</a> \
				</td> \
				<td class="dsq-comment-header-meta"> \
		';

		
		return html;
	};
	
	this.postAppendHeader = function(post_id) {
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		var html;
		var parent_display_name = '';
		
		if(_meta.parent_post_id) {

			var _parent_meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[_meta.parent_post_id];

			if (_parent_meta) {
				var parentUserData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_parent_meta.user_key];
				parent_display_name = parentUserData.display_name;
			}
		}

		html = ' \
		<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/themes/narcissus/moderator.png" class="dsq-moderator-star" title="Moderator" /> \
		<span class="dsq-comment-header-time"><a href="#comment-' + post_id + '" onclick="Dsq.Popup.permalink(' + post_id + ')" title="Permalink">' + (_meta.is_realtime ? Dsq.Strings.JUST_NOW : _meta.date) + '</a></span> '
		+ (_meta.parent_post_id && parent_display_name
			? '<a href="#comment-' + _meta.parent_post_id + '" title="Jump to comment">in reply to ' + parent_display_name + '</a>'
			: '')
		+ '</td> \
		<td id="dsq-like-pts-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-comment-header-likes">'
		+ (_meta.points
			? _meta.points + Dsq.Utils.pluralize(_meta.points, ' person', ' people') + ' liked this.'
			: '')
		+ '</td> \
		</tr> \
		</table> \
		';
		return html;
	};

	this.preBody = function(post_id) {
		var html = '';
		return html;
	};

	this.postFooter = function(post_id) {
		var html;
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		if(_meta.killed || !_meta.approved) { return ''; }
		
		html = ' \
		<div class="dsq-comment-footer" id="dsq-comment-footer-' + post_id + '"> \
			<div class="dsq-comment-footer-left">'
				+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator || Dsq.jsonData.request.is_global_moderator
					? '<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Templates.moderateOptions(' + post_id+ '); return false">' + Dsq.Strings.MODERATE + '</a>'
					: '')
				+ '<a href="#" id="dsq-post-report-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-post-report" onclick="Dsq.Post.report(' + post_id + ', false); return false;">' + Dsq.Strings.FLAG + '</a> \
			</div> \
			<div class="dsq-comment-footer-right">'
				+ (_meta.votable 
					? '<span id="dsq-like-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-like">'
					+ (!_meta.up_voted
						? '<button class="dsq-button-small" onclick="Dsq.Post.rate(this, ' + post_id + ', 1)" >Like</button>'
						: 'You liked this.&nbsp;&nbsp;')
					+ '</span>'
					: '')
				+ (_meta.can_reply && !_meta.has_replies && _meta.from_request_user
					? '<button class="dsq-button-small dsq-post-edit" onclick="Dsq.Post.edit(this, ' + post_id + ')" >' + Dsq.Strings.EDIT + '</button>'
					: '')
				+ (_meta.can_reply
					? '<span class="dsq-comment-footer-reply" id="dsq-comment-footer-reply-' + post_id + '" onclick="Dsq.Post.toggleReply(' + post_id +', this)"> \
						<button class="dsq-button-small">' + Dsq.Strings.REPLY + '</button> \
						<button class="dsq-comment-footer-reply-tab">' + Dsq.Strings.REPLY + '</button><span></span> \
					</span>'
					: '')
			+ '</div> \
		</div> \
		';
		
		return html;
	};



	
	this.showRetweets = function(id, limit, element_id /* Optional */) {
		var source, html = '';

		for (var i = 0, reaction; reaction = Dsq.jsonData.reactions[i]; i++) {
			if (reaction.id === id) {
				source = reaction.retweets;
			}
		}

		if (source) {
			if (limit === 0) {
				limit = source.length;
			}

			for (var j = 0; j < limit; j++) {
				var rt = source[j];
				html += '<a href="' + rt.url + '">' + rt.author_name + '</a>'	+ ((j === (limit - 1)) ? '.' : ', ');
			}
		}

		if (element_id === undefined) {
			return html;
		}

		var element = document.getElementById(element_id);
		element.innerHTML = html;
		return element;
	};

	this.showMoreReactions = function(reactions, has_more, start, limit) {
		var link = document.getElementById('dsq-show-more-reactions');
		var container = link.parentNode;
		container.removeChild(link);

		for (var i = 0, reaction; reaction = reactions[i]; i++) {
			var el = Dsq.Templates.generateReactionHTML(reaction);
			if (el) {
				container.innerHTML += el;
			}
		}

		if (has_more) {
			var d = Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url;
			var f = Dsq.jsonData.forum.url;
			var t = Dsq.jsonData.thread.id;
			var s = start;
			var l = limit;

			var handler = 'Dsq.Utils.execScript(\'' + d + '/forums/' + f + '/more_reactions.js?t=' + t + '&s=' + s + '&l=' + l + '\', true); return false;';
			container.innerHTML += '<li id="dsq-show-more-reactions" class="dsq-show-more-reactions"><button class="dsq-button-small" onclick="' + handler + '">Show more reactions</button></li>';
		}
	};

	this.generateReactionHTML = function(reaction) {
		if (reaction.body === null || reaction.body == '') {
			return;
		}

		if (reaction.author_name === '') {
			reaction.author_name = '&nbsp;';
		}

		if (reaction.url === '') {
			reaction.url = reaction.get_service_url;
		}

		var item = '<li class="dsq-comment dsq-reaction" id="dsq-reaction-' + reaction.id + '">'
			+ '<div class="dsq-comment-header"> \
			<table> \
			<tr> \
			<td class="dsq-header-avatar"> \
			';

		if (reaction.author_url && reaction.author_url !== '') {
			item += '<a target="_blank" href="' + reaction.author_url +'" class="dsq-avatar">';
		}

		if (reaction.avatar_url && reaction.avatar_url !== '') {
			item += '<img src="' + reaction.avatar_url + '"/>';
		} else {

			item += '<img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.media_url + '/images/noavatar92.png"/>';
		}

		var service_icon = (reaction.get_service_name == 'trackback' || reaction.get_service_name == 'pingback' ? 'rss' : reaction.get_service_name.replace(' ', ''));
		item += (reaction.author_url && reaction.author_url !== ''
				? '</a>'
				: '')
			+ '</td>'
			+ '<td><cite class="dsq-comment-cite">' + reaction.author_name + '</cite> <span class="dsq-comment-header-time">' + reaction.date_created + '</span></td>'
			+ '<td class="dsq-comment-header-likes"></td>'
			+ '</tr></table></div>' // end dsq-comment-header
			+ '<div class="dsq-reaction-header" \
				<table> \
					<tr> \
						<td class="dsq-reaction-header-left">'
							+ '<img class="dsq-service-icon" src="' + Dsq.jsonData.media_url + '/images/reactions/services/' + service_icon + '.png" />'
							+ ' From <a class="dsq-service-name" target="_blank" href="' + reaction.url + '">' + reaction.get_service_name + '</a> '
							+ 'via ' + (reaction.source == 'backtype' ? '<a href="http://backtype.com/">BackType</a>' : '<a href="' + reaction.source_url + '">UberVU</a>')
						+ '</td>'
						+ '<td class="dsq-reaction-header-right">';
			
			if(reaction.retweets) {
				var num_retweets = reaction.retweets.length;
				if (num_retweets > 0) {
					if (num_retweets == 1) {
						item += 'One more retweet from <a href="' + reaction.retweets[0].url + '">'  + reaction.retweets[0].author_name + '</a>';
					} else {
						item += (num_retweets + ' more retweets from ');
						item += '<span id="dsq-reaction-retweets-' + reaction.id + '">';
						var n_tweets = (num_retweets > 3) ? 3 : num_retweets;
						item += Dsq.Templates.showRetweets(reaction.id, n_tweets);
						if (n_tweets != num_retweets) {
							item += '</span> <a onclick="Dsq.Templates.showRetweets(' + reaction.id + ', 0, \'dsq-reaction-retweets-' + reaction.id + '\');'
								+ 'this.parentNode.removeChild(this); return false;" href="#">Show all</a>';
						}
					}
				}
			}	
			item += '</td></tr> \
			</table> \
			</div>' // end dsq-reaction-header
			+ '<div class="dsq-comment-body"> \
				<div class="dsq-comment-message">' + reaction.body + '</div>'
			+ '</div> \
			<div class="dsq-comment-footer"> \
				<div class="dsq-comment-footer-left"> \
				</div>'
				+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator || Dsq.jsonData.request.is_global_moderator 
					? ' \
					<div class="dsq-comment-footer-right"> \
						<button class="dsq-button-small dsq-hide-reaction" onclick="Dsq.Reaction.hide(' + reaction.id + ')">Hide</button> \
					</div>'
					: '')
			+ '</div>'
		item += '</li>'; /* Reaction HTML ends */
		return item;
	};

	this.reactions = function() {
		var html, reaction;

		if (Dsq.jsonData.reactions === undefined || Dsq.jsonData.reactions.length === 0) {
			return '';
		}

		html = '';
		for (var i = 0; reaction = Dsq.jsonData.reactions[i]; i++) {
			var item = Dsq.Templates.generateReactionHTML(reaction);
			if (item) {
				html += item;
			}
		}

		if (Dsq.jsonData.has_more_reactions) {
			var d = Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url;
			var f = Dsq.jsonData.forum.url;
			var t = Dsq.jsonData.thread.id;
			var s = Dsq.jsonData.reactions_start;
			var l = Dsq.jsonData.reactions_limit;

			var handler = 'Dsq.Utils.execScript(\'' + d + '/forums/' + f + '/more_reactions.js?t=' + t + '&s=' + s + '&l=' + l + '\', true); return false;';
			html += '<li id="dsq-show-more-reactions" class="dsq-show-more-reactions"><button class="dsq-button-small" onclick="' + handler + '">Show more reactions</button></li>';
		}

		return '<h3 id="dsq-reactions-title" class="dsq-h3-reactions">Reactions</h3><ul id="dsq-reactions" class="dsq-reactions">' + html + '</ul>';
	};
	
	this._popupGeneric = function(content) {
		return ' \
		<div class="dsq-popup-container"> \
			<table> \
				<tbody> \
					<tr> \
						<td class="dsq-popup-tl"></td><td class="dsq-popup-b"></td><td class="dsq-popup-tr"></td> \
					</tr> \
					<tr> \
						<td class="dsq-popup-b"></td> \
						<td class="dsq-popup-body"> \
							<div class="dsq-popup-content"> \
								<div class="dsq-popup-title"> \
									<button class="dsq-button-small" style="float:right" onclick="Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true)">Close</button>' 
									+ content['header'] 
								+ '</div>'
								+ content['body']
							+ '</div> \
							<div class="powered-by"><a href="http://disqus.com/comments/">Powered by <img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/disqus-logo.png" alt="Disqus Comments" style="margin-bottom:-5px" /></a></div> \
						</td> \
						<td class="dsq-popup-b"></td> \
					</tr> \
					<tr> \
						<td class="dsq-popup-bl"></td><td class="dsq-popup-b"></td><td class="dsq-popup-br"></td> \
					</tr> \
				</tbody> \
			</table> \
		</div> \
		';
	};



	
	this.chooseSubscribe = function(post_id) {

		var pid = post_id ? '-' + post_id : '';
		var menu = Dsq.$('dsq-subscribe-menu' + pid);
		
		menu.style.display = menu.style.display == 'block' ? 'none' : 'block';
		
	};
	
	this.setSubscribe = function(value, el, post_id) {

		var pid = post_id ? '-' + post_id : '';
		var input = Dsq.$('dsq-subscribe-on-post' + pid);
		var select = Dsq.$('dsq-subscribe-select' + pid);
		var menu = Dsq.$('dsq-subscribe-menu' + pid);
		
		select.innerHTML = el.innerHTML;
		input.value = value;
		this.chooseSubscribe(post_id);
	};
	
	this.getFormFields = function(post_id) {

		var fields = {};
		var pid = post_id ? '-' + post_id : '';
		var name = Dsq.$('dsq-field-name' + pid);
		var email = Dsq.$('dsq-field-email' + pid);
		var website = Dsq.$('dsq-field-website' + pid);
		var username = Dsq.$('dsq-field-username' + pid);
		var password = Dsq.$('dsq-field-password' + pid);

		fields = {
			'name': name,
			'email': email,
			'website': website,
			'username': username,
			'password': password
		}
		
		return fields;
	}
	
	this.validateFields = function(post_id) {
		
		if(Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated) { return true; }
		
		var fields = Dsq.Templates.getFormFields(post_id);
		
		var nameField = fields.name;
		var websiteField = fields.website;
		var emailField = fields.email;
		
		websiteField.value = (websiteField.value == Dsq.Templates.placeholder['website']) ? '' : websiteField.value;
		
		var v = [{

			validator: Dsq.Validators.name,
			value: nameField.value
		}, {

			validator: Dsq.Validators.email,
			value: emailField.value
		}, {

			validator: Dsq.Validators.url,
			value: websiteField.value
		}];
		
		return Dsq.Validators.validate(v, function(e) { Dsq.Popup.popModal(e, 'Oops...') } );
	};
	
	this.checkExistingUser = function(post_id) {
		var fields = Dsq.Templates.getFormFields(post_id);		
		Dsq.Popup.loading(post_id);
		
		if (post_id) {
			Dsq.frames['reply_' + post_id].getUserByEmail(fields.email.value);
		} else {
			Dsq.frames['reply_0'].getUserByEmail(fields.email.value);
		}
	};

	this.validateAuth = function(el_clicked, post_id, auth_choice) {
		var fields = Dsq.Templates.getFormFields(post_id);
		var email = fields.email ? fields.email.value : '';
		var username = fields.username ? fields.username.value : '';
		var password = fields.password ? fields.password.value : '';
		
		Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(el_clicked, post_id);
		
		if (post_id) {
			Dsq.frames['reply_' + post_id].validateAuth(auth_choice, email, username, password);
		} else {
			Dsq.frames['reply_0'].validateAuth(auth_choice, email, username, password);
		}
	};

	this.lightboxUpdateEmail = function(post_id, new_email) {
		var fields = Dsq.Templates.getFormFields(post_id);
		fields.email.value = new_email;
	};

	this.lightboxAuthenticate = function(post_id, auth_choice, auth_data) {
		var title, body;
		var pid = post_id ? '-' + post_id : '';

		if(typeof(auth_data) == 'undefined') {
			var auth_data = Dsq.Templates.getFormFields(post_id);
		}

		d = auth_data;

		switch(auth_choice) {
			case 'register':
				var suggestedUsername = d.name.value.replace(/[^a-zA-Z0-9-]/g,'').toLowerCase();
			
				title = Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post ? 'Optional:' : 'Required:';
				title += ' Register a <img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/disqus-profile.png" alt=Disqus Profile" />';

				body = ' \
				<ul class="dsq-lightbox-register-reasons"> \
				<li>Verify your comments</li> \
				<li>Edit and delete comments</li> \
				<li>Manage comments and replies</li> \
				</ul> \
				';

				body += ' \
				<div class="dsq-lightbox-auth-fields"> \
					<table> \
						<tr> \
							<td>Email</td> \
							<td><input type="text" value="' + d.email.value + '" onchange="Dsq.Templates.lightboxUpdateEmail(' + post_id + ', this.value)" /><div id="dsq-email-errors' + pid + '"></div></td> \
						</tr> \
						<tr> \
							<td>Username</td> \
							<td><input id="dsq-field-username' + pid + '" type="text" value="' + suggestedUsername + '"/><div id="dsq-username-errors' + pid + '"></div></td> \
						</tr> \
						<tr> \
							<td>Password</td> \
							<td><input id="dsq-field-password' + pid + '" type="password" /><div id="dsq-password-errors' + pid + '"></div></td> \
						</tr> \
					</table> \
					<div class="dsq-lightbox-switch-auth"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Templates.lightboxAuthenticate(' + post_id + ',\'login\'); return false">Login instead</a></div> \
				</div> \
				<div id="dsq-lightbox-errors' + pid + '" class="dsq-lightbox-errors"></div> \
				<div class="dsq-lightbox-submit"> \
					<div class="dsq-lightbox-auth-post"><button class="dsq-button" onclick="Dsq.Templates.validateAuth(this, ' + post_id + ',\'' + auth_choice + '\')">Register and Post comment</button></div>'
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post
						? '<div class="dsq-lightbox-auth-skip"><button class="dsq-button-small" onclick="Dsq.Templates.postComment(' + post_id + ', this, true)">Just post as a Guest</button></div>'
						: '')
				+ '</div> \
				';
				break;
			case 'login':
				title = Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post ? 'Optional:' : 'Required:';
				title += ' Login to your <img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/disqus-profile.png" alt=Disqus Profile" />';
				body = '';
				
				if(d.avatar_url) {
					body += '<div class="dsq-lightbox-recognized"><table><tr>';
					body += '<td><img src="' + d.avatar_url + '" alt="" /></td>';
					body += '<td><span class="dsq-badge ' + (d.verified ? 'dsq-badge-verified' : 'dsq-badge-registered') + '">' + (d.verified ? 'Verified' : 'Registered') + '</span></td>';
					body += '<td>Hey <strong>' + d.display_name + '</strong>, is that you? Login below to claim this comment.';
					body += '</tr></table></div>';
				}

				body += ' \
				<div class="dsq-lightbox-auth-fields"> \
					<table> \
						<tr> \
							<td>Username or Email</td> \
							<td><input id="dsq-field-username' + pid + '" type="text" value="' + (d.avatar_url ? d.username : '') + '" /></td> \
						</tr> \
						<tr> \
							<td>Password <a href="http://disqus.com/forgot" target="_blank">(cannot log in?)</a></td> \
							<td><input id="dsq-field-password' + pid + '" type="password" /></td> \
						</tr> \
					</table> \
					<div class="dsq-lightbox-switch-auth"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Templates.lightboxAuthenticate(' + post_id + ',\'register\'); return false">Register instead</a></div> \
				</div> \
				<div id="dsq-lightbox-errors' + pid + '" class="dsq-lightbox-errors"></div> \
				<div class="dsq-lightbox-submit"> \
					<div class="dsq-lightbox-auth-post"><button class="dsq-button" onclick="Dsq.Templates.validateAuth(this, ' + post_id + ',\'' + auth_choice + '\')">Login and Post comment</button></div>'
					+ (Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post
						? '<div class="dsq-lightbox-auth-skip"><button class="dsq-button-small" onclick="Dsq.Templates.postComment(' + post_id + ', this, true)">Just post as a Guest</button></div>'
						: '')
				+ '</div> \
				';
				break;
			default:
				break;
		}
		Dsq.Popup.lightbox(body, title, post_id);
		Dsq.$('dsq-field-username' + pid).focus();
	};
	
	this.buttonsToRestore = [];
	this.setLoadingButton = function(btn, post_id) {
		var pid = post_id ? '-' + post_id : '';
		if (btn) {

			var loadingBtn = document.createElement('button');
			loadingBtn.id = btn.id + '-loading';
			loadingBtn.innerHTML = '<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/loading-lite.gif" alt="" /> Just a moment...';
			loadingBtn.className = btn.className + ' dsq-post-loading';
			btn.parentNode.appendChild(loadingBtn);
			btn.style.display = 'none';
			var cancelBtn = Dsq.$('dsq-cancel-button' + pid);
			if(cancelBtn) { cancelBtn.style.display = 'none'; this.buttonsToRestore.push(cancelBtn); }
			this.buttonsToRestore.push(btn);
		} else {

			var buttons = this.buttonsToRestore;
			for(var i = 0; i < buttons.length; i++) {
				buttons[i].style.display = 'inline';
				Dsq.Utils.deleteNode(Dsq.$(buttons[i].id + '-loading'));
			}
		}
		
	};

	this.postComment = function(post_id, el_clicked, force, auth_choice) {
		var append_id = post_id ? '-' + post_id : '';
		var fields = Dsq.Templates.getFormFields(post_id);

		if (Dsq.Templates.validateFields(post_id)) {

			if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated && !force &&
				((!Dsq.Utils.readCookie('skipped_auth') && !disqus_skip_auth && !Dsq.jsonData.forum.disqus_auth_disabled) || !Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post)) {
				Dsq.Templates.checkExistingUser(post_id);
				return false;
			}
			var params = [];
			if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated) {
				params.push(fields.name.value,
					fields.email.value,
					fields.website.value);

				if (auth_choice == 'login' || auth_choice == 'register') {
					params.push({
						auth_choice: auth_choice,
						username: fields.username.value,
						password: fields.password.value,
						email: fields.email.value
					});
				} else {
					params.push(null);
				}

				params.push(null /* sharing options */, Dsq.$('dsq-subscribe-on-post' + append_id).value);
			} else {
				var service_checked = function(name) {
					var el = Dsq.$('dsq-sharing-' + name + append_id);
					return (el !== null && el.checked === true) ? '1' : '0';
				};
				params.push(null, null, null, null, {
					tw: service_checked('twitter'),
					fb: service_checked('facebook'),
					tr: service_checked('tumblr'),
					wp: service_checked('wordpress'),
					mt: service_checked('movabletype'),
					tp: service_checked('typepad'),
					yh: service_checked('yahoo')
				});
			}

			var frame = Dsq.frames['reply_' + (post_id ? post_id : 0)];
			frame.post.apply(frame, params);

			if (el_clicked) {
				Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(el_clicked, post_id);
			}
			
			if (force) {
				Dsq.Utils.createCookie('skipped_auth', true);	
			}
			
		} else {
			return false;
		}
	};

	this.editComment = function(el_clicked, post_id) {
		var edited_message = Dsq.$('dsq-edit-textarea-' + post_id).value;

		Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(el_clicked, post_id);
		Dsq.frames['edit_' + post_id].edit(post_id, edited_message);
	};

	this.toggleEdit = function(post_id) {
		var body = Dsq.$('dsq-comment-body-' + post_id);
		var message = Dsq.$('dsq-comment-message-' + post_id);

		if (!Dsq.Post.stateEditToggled[post_id]) {


			message.style.display = 'none';
			if (Dsq.$('dsq-edit-' + post_id)) {
				Dsq.$('dsq-edit-' + post_id).style.display = 'block';
			} else {

				var edit_area = document.createElement('div');
				edit_area.id = 'dsq-edit-' + post_id;
				edit_area.className = 'dsq-edit dsq-textarea';
				edit_area.innerHTML = ' \
				<div class="dsq-textarea-wrapper"> \
					<textarea class="dsq-edit-textarea" id="dsq-edit-textarea-' + post_id + '">' + message.innerHTML + '</textarea> \
				</div> \
				<div class="dsq-save-edit"> \
					<button onclick="Dsq.Templates.editComment(this, ' + post_id + ')" class="dsq-button-small">Save Edit</button> \
				</div> \
				<div id="dsq-edit-iframe-' + post_id + '" style="display: none"></div> \
				';

				body.appendChild(edit_area);

				if (!Dsq.frames['edit_' + post_id]) {
					var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
					Dsq.frames['edit_' + post_id] = new Dsq.ReplyFrame(Dsq.$('dsq-edit-iframe-' + post_id), post_id);
					Dsq.frames['edit_' + post_id].init();
					Dsq.frames['edit_' + post_id].setState(post_id, _meta.depth);
				}
			}
		} else {

			message.style.display = 'block';
			Dsq.$('dsq-edit-' + post_id).style.display = 'none';
		}
		
		Dsq.Post.stateEditToggled[post_id] = !Dsq.Post.stateEditToggled[post_id];
	};
	
	this.edit = function(el, post_id) {

		Dsq.Templates.toggleEdit(post_id);
	};

	this.toggleReply = function(post_id, button) {
		
		if(!this.stateReplyToggled[post_id]) {

			if (Dsq.$('dsq-reply-post-' + post_id)) {
				Dsq.$('dsq-append-post-' + post_id).style.display = 'block';
			} else {
				Dsq.$('dsq-append-post-' + post_id).innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.postBox(post_id);
				var container = Dsq.$('dsq-textarea-wrapper-' + post_id);
				if (!Dsq.frames['reply_' + post_id] && container) {
					var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
					Dsq.frames['reply_' + post_id] = new Dsq.ReplyFrame(container, post_id);
					Dsq.frames['reply_' + post_id].init(function() {

						Dsq.$('dsq-append-post-' + post_id).innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.postBox(post_id, true);
						Dsq.$('dsq-form-area-' + post_id).innerHTML = '';

						var theme = (typeof disqus_frame_theme == 'undefined') ? 'default' : disqus_frame_theme;
						Dsq.Iframes.showReplyIframeInContainer(Dsq.$('dsq-form-area-' + post_id), post_id, {theme: theme});

					});
					Dsq.frames['reply_' + post_id].setState(post_id, _meta.depth);
				}
			}
			Dsq.$('dsq-append-post-' + post_id).className = 'dsq-append-post';
			Dsq.$('dsq-comment-footer-reply-' + post_id).className = 'dsq-comment-footer-reply-active';
			
		} else {

			Dsq.$('dsq-append-post-' + post_id).style.display = 'none';
			Dsq.$('dsq-append-post-' + post_id).className = '';
			Dsq.$('dsq-comment-footer-reply-' + post_id).className = 'dsq-comment-footer-reply';
		}
		
		this.stateReplyToggled[post_id] = !this.stateReplyToggled[post_id];

		if(Dsq.Utils.ie && this.stateReplyToggled[post_id]) {

		}

		Dsq.Events.fire(Dsq.Events.REPLY_IFRAME_TOGGLED, {
			postId: post_id,
			opened: this.stateReplyToggled[post_id]
		});
	};
	
	this.moderateOptions = function(post_id) {
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_meta.user_key];
		
		if(!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator && !Dsq.jsonData.request.is_global_moderator) { return false; }

		var html;
		
		html = ' \
		<div class="dsq-moderate-options"> \
		<table>'
		+ (_meta.email ? '<tr><td>Email</td><td>' + _meta.email + '</td></tr>' : '')
		+ (_meta.ip ? '<tr><td>IP address</td><td>' + _meta.ip + '</td></tr>' : '')
		+ '<tr> \
			<td>Actions</td> \
			<td><ul>'
			+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.moderator_can_edit
				? '<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.edit(this, ' + post_id + '); Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true); return false;">Edit Comment</a></li>'
				: '')
			+ '<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.removePost(' + post_id + ', 1); Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true); return false;">Delete Comment</a></li> \
			<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.reportSpam(' + post_id + '); Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true); return false;">Mark Spam</a></li> \
			<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.blacklist(' + post_id + '); return false">Block User</a></li> \
			</ul></td> \
			</table> \
		</div> \
		';
		
		html += '<p>Go to the full <a href="http://disqus.com/comments/moderate/" target="_blank">moderate panel</a> for more options.</p>';
		
		return Dsq.Popup.popModal(html, 'Moderate Options', post_id);
	};
	
	this.placeholder = {
		'class': 'dsq-placeholder',
		'name': Dsq.Strings.NAME,
		'email': Dsq.Strings.EMAIL,
		'website': Dsq.Strings.WEBSITE + ' (' + Dsq.Strings.OPTIONAL.toLowerCase() + ')'
	};
	
	this.handlePlaceholder = function(evt, el, key) {
		var placeholder = Dsq.Templates.placeholder[key];
		var className = Dsq.Templates.placeholder['class'];
		
		switch(evt.type) {
			case 'focus':
				if(el.value == placeholder) {
					el.value = '';
					el.className = '';
				}
				break;

			case 'blur':
				if(el.value == '') {
					el.value = placeholder;
					el.className = className;
				}
				break;
			default:
				break;
		}
	};
	
	this.paginate = function(page, el_clicked) {

		var extra_params = '';

		if(typeof disqus_per_page != 'undefined') {
			extra_params += '&per_page=' + disqus_per_page;
		}
		if(typeof disqus_sort != 'undefined') {
			extra_params += '&sort=' + disqus_sort;
		}

		Dsq.$('dsq-pagination').innerHTML += '<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/loading-small.gif">';
		
		if(el_clicked) {
			Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(el_clicked);
		}
		
		Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/thread.js'
			+ '?slug='	+ 'my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism'
			+ '&p='		+ page
			+ extra_params);
	};
	
	
	this.rate = function(el, id, vote) {


		if(Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated || Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_votes) {
			if(vote == 1) {
				Dsq.$('dsq-like-' + id).innerHTML = '<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/loading-small.gif">';
			}
			Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/vote.js'
				+ '?post_id='    + id
				+ '&vote='        + vote);
		} else {
			Dsq.Popup.login('To rate, please log in');
		}
	};

	this.voted = function(post_id, points, vote) {

		Dsq.$('dsq-like-pts-' + post_id).innerHTML = points + Dsq.Utils.pluralize(points, ' person', ' people') + ' liked this.';

		if(vote) {
			Dsq.$('dsq-like-' + post_id).innerHTML = 'You liked this.&nbsp;&nbsp;';
		}
	};




	this.postComment_onSuccess = function(response, parent_post_id, post_id) {
		var approved = response.message.post_meta.approved;

		if (parent_post_id) {
			Dsq.Post.toggleReply(parent_post_id);
		}

		Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true);
		
		if (approved) {
			Dsq.Post.incrementPostCount();
			Dsq.Post.outlineComment(post_id);
		} else {			
			var unapproved_msg = 'Thanks for posting!\
	 Your comment must be approved by a moderator before appearing here.\
			';
			Dsq.Popup.popModal(unapproved_msg, 'Comment awaiting approval', post_id);
		}

		var sharing_results = response.message.sharing_results;
		var sharing_errors = '';
		for (var service in sharing_results) {
			if (sharing_results.hasOwnProperty(service) === true) {
				if (sharing_results[service].error === true) {
					sharing_errors += service + ', ';
				}
			}
		}

		if (sharing_results.facebook && sharing_results.facebook.callback) {
			FB.ensureInit(function() {
				FB.Connect.streamPublish('', sharing_results.facebook.attachment);
			});
		}

		if (sharing_errors !== '') {
			var message = 'Your comment was posted, but there were errors sharing with the following connections: ';
			message += sharing_errors.replace(/,\s$/, '');
			message += '<p><a href="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/profile/connections" target="_blank">Configure your connections here</a></p>'
			Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, 'Sharing options');
		}

		Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(false);
	};

	this.postComment_onFailure = function(response, parent_post_id, post_id) {

		Dsq.Templates.setLoadingButton(false);
	};
};




// TODO: It might be faster to use string methods to find all <li (...) </li> blocks and pass to Dsq.PostHandler manually.
Dsq.CommentsHandler = function(str, head, post_id, content, tail, offset, s) {
	var prepend_post = Dsq.Templates.prependPost(post_id);
	var append_post = Dsq.Templates.appendPost(post_id);

	content = content.replace(Dsq.POST_RE, Dsq.PostHandler);
	Dsq.Templates.postLoopCounter++;
	head = Dsq.Templates.Filters.commentContainer(post_id, head);
	return prepend_post + head + content + tail + append_post;
};

Dsq.PostHandler = function(str, h_head, post_id, h_content, h_tail, b_head, b_content, b_tail, offset, s) {
	var prepend_header = Dsq.Templates.postPrependHeader(post_id);
	var append_header = Dsq.Templates.postAppendHeader(post_id);
	var prepend_body = Dsq.Templates.preBody(post_id);
	var append_body = Dsq.Templates.postBody(post_id);
	var append_footer = Dsq.Templates.postFooter(post_id);

	b_content = b_content.replace(Dsq.POST_BODY_RE, Dsq.PostBodyHandler);
	return h_head + prepend_header + h_content + append_header + h_tail + b_head + prepend_body + b_content + append_body + b_tail + append_footer;
};

Dsq.PostBodyHandler = function(str, head, post_id, content, tail, offset, s) {
	content = Dsq.Templates.Filters.commentContent(post_id, content);
	return head + content + tail;
};

Dsq.MediaPostHandler = function(str, args, offset, s) {
	args = args.split(' ');
	if(args[0] == 'seesmic') {
		return '<br />' + Dsq.Templates.mediaSeesmic(args[1], args[2]);
	}
	return '';
};


/**
 * Shorcuts
 */
Dsq.$ = function(element) { return document.getElementById(element); };
Dsq.$b = document.body || document.getElementsByTagName('body')[0];


/**
 * Dsq.Debug: Logging functions.
 */

Dsq.Debug = new function() {this.log=function(s){};this.profile=function(f){if(typeof f == 'function')return f();else return eval(f);};};


/**
 * Dsq.Urls: URL paths
 */
Dsq.Urls = new function() {
	this.LOGIN = '/profile/login/';
	this.LOGOUT = '/logout/';
	this.REPLY = 'http://jackandjillpolitics.disqus.com/my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism/reply.html';
	this.REQUEST_USER_PROFILE = '/AnonymousUser/';
	this.REQUEST_USER_AVATAR = 'http://media.disqus.com/images/noavatar92.png';
};
// Dsq.Urls

/**
 * Dsq.Validators: Validation for form fields
 */
Dsq.Validators = new function() {
	this.VALID_EMAIL_RE = /^[a-z0-9\-\_\+]+(\.[a-z0-9\-\_\+]+)*\@(([a-z0-9\-\_\+]+(\.[a-z0-9\-\_\+]+)*)+\.[a-z]{2,}|([0-9]+\.){3}[0-9]+)$/i;
	this.name = function(name) {
		var error = false;

		if(typeof Dsq.Templates.placeholder !== 'undefined' &&
		   name == Dsq.Templates.placeholder.name) {
			error = true;
		}
		if(name.length <= 1) {
			error = true;
		}

		if(error) {
			return "Please enter a name to comment.";
		} else {
			return true;
		}
	};
	this.email = function(addr) {
		if(Dsq.Validators.VALID_EMAIL_RE.test(addr)) {
			return true;
		} else {
			return "Please enter a valid email to comment.";
		}
	};
	this.url = function(addr) {
		if(!addr || addr.indexOf('.') != -1) {
			return true;
		} else {
			return "Please check your website URL (this field is optional).";
		}
	};

	this.validate = function(bulk_validation, failure_callback) {
		failure_callback = failure_callback || function(e){ alert(e); };

		for(var i = 0; i < bulk_validation.length; i++) {
			v = bulk_validation[i];
			ret = v.validator(v.value);
			if(ret !== true) {
				failure_callback(ret);
				return false;
			}
		}
		return true;
	};
};

/**
 * Dsq.Utils: Generic utility functions.
 */
Dsq.Utils = new function() {
	this.ie = /msie/i.test(navigator.userAgent) && !/opera/i.test(navigator.userAgent);
	this.ie7 = (document.all && !window.opera && window.XMLHttpRequest) ? true : false;
	this.ie6 = (!window.XMLHttpRequest) ? true: false;
	this.webkit = navigator.userAgent.indexOf('AppleWebKit/') >= 0;
	this.gebiFromElementCollectionCache = {};
	this._styleSheet = null;

	this.gebiFromElement = function(el, id, tag) {
		// This only method only helps IE.
		if(!this.ie) {
			return Dsq.$(id);
		} else {
			var cacheKey = el.id + '-' + tag;
			tag = tag || 'div';
			if(typeof this.gebiFromElementCollectionCache[cacheKey] != 'undefined') {
				collection = this.gebiFromElementCollectionCache[cacheKey];
			} else {
				collection = el.getElementsByTagName(tag);
				this.gebiFromElementCollectionCache[cacheKey] = collection;
			}

			for(var i = 0; i < collection.length; i++) {
				if(collection[i].id == id) {
					return collection[i];
				}
			}
			return null;
		}
	};

	this.execOnReady = function(func) {
		var node = document.createElement('document:ready');
		try {
			node.doScroll('left');
			func();
			node = null;
		} catch(err) {
			setTimeout(function() { Dsq.Utils.execOnReady(func); }, 10);
		}
	};


	// Courtesy of http://www.quirksmode.org/js/cookies.html
	this.createCookie = function(name,value,days) {
		if (days) {
			var date = new Date();
			date.setTime(date.getTime()+(days*24*60*60*1000));
			var expires = "; expires="+date.toGMTString();
		}
		else var expires = "";
		document.cookie = name+"="+value+expires+"; path=/";
	};

	this.readCookie = function(name) {
		var nameEQ = name + "=";
		var ca = document.cookie.split(';');
		for(var i=0;i < ca.length;i++) {
			var c = ca[i];
			while (c.charAt(0)==' ') c = c.substring(1,c.length);
			if (c.indexOf(nameEQ) == 0) return c.substring(nameEQ.length,c.length);
		}
		return null;
	};

	this.eraseCookie = function(name) {
		Dsq.Utils.createCookie(name,"",-1);
	};

	this.deleteNode = function(node) {
		if(node) {
			this.deleteChildren(node);
			if(typeof node.outerHTML != 'undefined') { node.outerHTML = ''; }
			else if(node.parentNode) { node.parentNode.removeChild(node); }
			delete node;
		}
	};

	this.deleteChildren = function(node) {
		if(node) {
			for(var x = node.childNodes.length-1; x >= 0; x--) {
				var childNode = node.childNodes[x];
				if(childNode.hasChildNodes()) { this.deleteChildren(childNode); }
				if(typeof childNode.outerHTML != 'undefined') { childNode.outerHTML = ''; }
				else node.removeChild(childNode);
				delete childNode;
			}
		}
	};

	this.findPos = function(obj) {
		var curleft = 0;
		var curtop = 0;
		if (obj.offsetParent) {
			do {
				curleft += obj.offsetLeft;
				curtop += obj.offsetTop;
			} while (obj = obj.offsetParent);
		}
		return [curleft,curtop];
	};

	this.getWindowSize = function() {
		var windowWidth = -1;
		var windowHeight = -1;

		if(typeof(window.innerWidth) == 'number') { //Non-IE
			windowWidth = window.innerWidth;
			windowHeight = window.innerHeight;
		} else if(document.documentElement) { // IE 6+ in 'standards compliant mode'
			windowWidth = document.documentElement.clientWidth || document.body.clientWidth;
			windowHeight = document.documentElement.clientHeight || document.body.clientHeight;
		}

		return [windowWidth, windowHeight];
	}

	this.getScrollPos = function() {
		var scrollWidth, scrollTop;

		if(document.documentElement && (document.documentElement.scrollTop || document.documentElement.scrollWidth)) {
			scrollWidth = document.documentElement.scrollWidth;
			// IE is weird here.  If no doctype is provided, document.body.scrollTop is 0,
			// otherwise document.documentElement.scrollTop is 0.
			scrollTop = document.documentElement.scrollTop || document.body.scrollTop;
		} else if(document.body.scrollTop && document.body.scrollWidth) {
			scrollWidth = document.body.scrollWidth;
			scrollTop = document.body.scrollTop;
		}

		return [scrollWidth, scrollTop];
	}

	this.addEventListener = function(instance, eventName, listener) {
		var listenerFn = listener;
		if (instance.addEventListener) {
			instance.addEventListener(eventName, listenerFn, false);
		} else if (instance.attachEvent) {
			listenerFn = function() {
				listener(window.event);
			};
			instance.attachEvent("on" + eventName, listenerFn);
		} else {
			throw new Error("Event registration not supported");
		}
		return {
			instance: instance,
			name: eventName,
			listener: listenerFn
		};
	};

	this.removeEventListener = function(event) {
		var instance = event.instance;
		if (instance.removeEventListener) {
			instance.removeEventListener(event.name, event.listener, false);
		} else if (instance.detachEvent) {
			instance.detachEvent("on" + event.name, event.listener);
		}
	};

	this.fixIframesIE = function(id) {
		var disqusThread = Dsq.$(disqus_container_id);
		var iframes = disqusThread.getElementsByTagName('iframe');

		if(id) {
			var container = Dsq.$(id);
		} else {
			var container = Dsq.$('dsq-content');
		}

		for(i = 0; i < iframes.length; i++) {
			if (container) {
				iframes[i].style.width = container.offsetWidth;
			}
		}
	};

	this.getElementsByClassName = function(oElm, strTagName, strClassName) {
	/* Credit: Jonathan Snook [http://www.snook.ca/jonathan], Robert Nyman [http://www.robertnyman.com] */
		var arrElements = (strTagName == "*" && oElm.all)? oElm.all : oElm.getElementsByTagName(strTagName);
		var arrReturnElements = new Array();
		strClassName = strClassName.replace(/\-/g, "\\-");
		var oRegExp = new RegExp("(^|\\s)" + strClassName + "(\\s|$)");
		var oElement;
		for(var i = 0; i < arrElements.length; i++) {
			oElement = arrElements[i];
			if(oRegExp.test(oElement.className)) {
				arrReturnElements.push(oElement);
			}
		}
		return (arrReturnElements);
	};

	this.postToUrl = function(url, post_data, opt_redirect) {
		var form = document.createElement('form');
		var iframe_container = document.createElement('div');
		var id = 'dsq-temp-iframe-' + (new Date()).getTime();

		form.method = 'POST';
		form.action = url;
		if (!opt_redirect) {
			form.target = id;
		}
		iframe_container.innerHTML = '<iframe style="display:none" name="' + id + '" id="' + id + '"></iframe>';

		for(var key in post_data) {
			if(post_data.hasOwnProperty(key)) {
				var input = document.createElement('input');
				input.name = key;
				input.type = 'hidden';
				input.value = post_data[key];

				form.appendChild(input);
			}
		}

		Dsq.$b.appendChild(iframe_container);
		Dsq.$b.appendChild(form);
		form.submit();
	};

	// Strips integer id from id of element in the form ('some-id-###')
	this.extractId = function(e) {
		var chunks = e.id.split('-');
		if(chunks.length <= 1) {
			return 0;
		} else {
			return parseInt(chunks[chunks.length-1]);
		}
	};

	this.getStyle = function(el, styleProp) {
		if(el.currentStyle) {
			var y = el.currentStyle[styleProp];
		} else if(window.getComputedStyle) {
			var y = document.defaultView.getComputedStyle(el, null).getPropertyValue(styleProp);
		}

		if(y == 'transparent' || y == '') {
			this.getStyle(el.parentNode, styleProp);
		} else {
			return y;
		}
	};

	this.execScript = function(url, append_qs, container) {
		var script = document.createElement('script');
		append_qs = typeof append_qs == 'undefined' ? true : append_qs;
		container = container || Dsq.container;

		if(append_qs) {
			var j = (url.indexOf('?') >= 0) ? '&' : '?';
			url += j + (new Date()).getTime();
		}
		script.type = 'text/javascript';
		script.charset = 'UTF-8';
		script.src = url;
		container.appendChild(script);
		return script;
	};

	this.pluralize = function(num, singular, plural) {
		return (num != 1) ? plural || 's' : singular || '';
	};

	this.getRequestParams = function(queryString /* optional */) {
		var pairs, tuple;
		var params = {};

		queryString = queryString || window.location.search.substring(1);
		pairs = queryString.split('&');

		for (var i = 0, pair; pair = pairs[i]; i++) {
			tuple = pair.split('=');
			params[tuple[0]] = (tuple[1] || true);
		}

		return params;
	};

	this.addCssRule = function(selector, styleText, index) {
		var stylesheet;
		index = index || 0;

		if(!this._styleSheet) {
			var styleEl = document.createElement('style');
			document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(styleEl);
			this._styleSheet = styleEl.sheet;
			if(!this._styleSheet) {
				// IE does not like our newly created stylesheet.
				this._styleSheet = document.styleSheets[document.styleSheets.length-1];
			}
		}
		stylesheet = this._styleSheet;

		if(stylesheet.insertRule) {
			var ruleText = selector + ' { ' + styleText + ' }';
			if(index == -1) {
				index = stylesheet.cssRules.length;
			}
			stylesheet.insertRule(ruleText, index);
		} else if(stylesheet.addRule) {
			stylesheet.addRule(selector, styleText, index);
		}
	};

	this.forEachIn = function(obj, callback) {
		for(var key in obj) {
			if(obj.hasOwnProperty(key)) {
				callback(key, obj[key]);
			}
		}
	};

	this._interpolateGlobalContext = {
		// values that get used a lot and are global to the request
		'profile_url': Dsq.Urls.REQUEST_USER_PROFILE,

		'disqus_url': Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url,
		'media_url': Dsq.jsonData.settings.media_url,
		'request_username': Dsq.jsonData.request.username,
		'request_display_username': Dsq.jsonData.request.display_username,
		'forum_name': Dsq.jsonData.forum.name
	};

	this.renderFromContextStack = function(key, contexts) {
		// Returns the first instance of `key` in the array of objects `contexts` or else ''
		for (var i=0; i<contexts.length; i++) {
			if (contexts[i][key] !== undefined) {
				return String(contexts[i][key]);
			}
		}
		throw new Error('key ' + key + ' not found in context');
	};

	var that = this;
	this.interpolate = function(fmt, opt_localContext) {
		// Interpolate `fmt` named-format string with an assumed global context.
		// Based on `interpolate` in django.views.i18n
		var contextStack = [opt_localContext || {}, that._interpolateGlobalContext];
		return fmt.replace(/%\(\w+\)s/g, function(match){
			return that.renderFromContextStack(match.slice(2,-2), contextStack);
		});
	};

	this.stripTags = function(s) {
		// Removes HTML tags from `s`
		return s.replace(/(<([^>]+)>)/g,"");

	};

	this.assert = function(b) {
		if (!b) {
			throw new Error('Assertion error.');
		}
	};

};
// Dsq.Utils

/**
 * Dsq.Popup: Popup helper functions.
 */
Dsq.Popup = new function() {
	this.timeHide = new Array();
	this.timeShow = new Array();
	this.activePopup = {};
	this.profileCache = {};
	this.statusCache = {};

	this.showTimer = function(post_id) {
		// clear the hide timer
		clearTimeout(this.timeHide[post_id]);

		// start the timer
		if(!Dsq.Popup.profileIsOn && !Dsq.Thread.adminIsOn) {
			this.timeShow[post_id] = setTimeout("Dsq.Popup.popProfile(\"" + post_id + "\")", 400);
		}
	};

	this.hideTimer = function(post_id) {
		// clear the show timer
		clearTimeout(this.timeShow[post_id]);
	};

	this.updateProfile = function(username) {
		// Callback from /embed/profile.js
		if (this.statusCache[username]) {
			var statusEl = Dsq.$('dsq-profile-status-' + username);
			statusEl.innerHTML = this.statusCache[username];
			statusEl.style.display = 'block';
		}

		if (this.profileCache[username]) {
			var _cache = this.profileCache[username];

			var _genhtml = function(text) { return '<span><big>' + text + '</big></span>'; };
			var _no_comments = _genhtml(Dsq.FmtStrings.NUMBER_OF_COMMENTS(_cache.comments_count));
			var _no_likes = _genhtml(Dsq.FmtStrings.NUMBER_OF_LIKES(_cache.likes_count));
			var _no_points = _genhtml(Dsq.FmtStrings.NUMBER_OF_POINTS(_cache.points));

			var statsEl = Dsq.$('dsq-popup-profile-user-stats-' + username);
			statsEl.innerHTML = '';

			if (Dsq.jsonData.users[username].registered) {
				statsEl.innerHTML = _no_comments + _no_likes;
			}
			statsEl.innerHTML += _no_points;

			var activeSites = '';
			for (var i = 0; i < _cache.active_sites.length; i++) {
				var site = _cache.active_sites[i];
				activeSites += '<li><a href="' + site.url + '"> \
					<img src="' + site.favicon + '"/ width="16" height="16"/></a>\
					<a href="' + site.url + '">' + site.name + '</a></li>';
			}
			if (activeSites !== '') {
				Dsq.$('dsq-popup-profile-active-sites-' + username).innerHTML = activeSites;
			} else {
				Dsq.$('dsq-popup-profile-active-sites-' + username).innerHTML = 'This site.';
			}

			var moderatedSites = '';
			for (var i = 0; i < _cache.moderated_sites.length; i++) {
				var site = _cache.moderated_sites[i];
				moderatedSites += '<li><a href="' + site.url + '"> \
					<img src="' + site.favicon + '"/ width="16" height="16"/></a>\
					<a href="' + site.url + '">' + site.name + '</a></li>';
			}
			if (moderatedSites !== '') {
				Dsq.$('dsq-popup-profile-moderated-' + username).innerHTML = moderatedSites;
			} else {
				Dsq.$('dsq-popup-profile-moderated-wrapper-' + username).innerHTML = '';
			}
		}

		// Reposition popup after full HTML is rendered
		if(Dsq.Popup.activePopup && Dsq.Popup.activePopup.el) {
			Dsq.Popup.initPopup(Dsq.Popup.activePopup.el, Dsq.Popup.activePopup.id, Dsq.Popup.activePopup.type);
		}

	};

	this.showCookieMsgs = function() {
		var title = '';
		var message = '';
		var numAlerts = 0;

		Dsq.Utils.forEachIn(Dsq.jsonData.cookie_messages, function(k, v) {
			if (!v) return;

			switch(k) {
				// Cookie: Twitter
				case 'post_twitter':
					if (v === 'error') {
						title = 'Twitter Error!';
						message += '<li id="dsq-msg-twitter-error">Oops, we couldn\'t tweet this comment. Please check your <a href="http://disqus.com/account/services">account settings</a>.</li>';
					} else {
						var _msg = v.split(':');
						title = 'Tweeted!';
						message += '<li id="dsq-msg-twitter-success">Your comment was successfully tweeted. <a href="http://twitter.com/' + _msg[0] + '/status/' + _msg[1] + '">Click here to view the tweet</a>.</li>';
					}
					break;
				// Cookie: Unapproved Post
				case 'post_not_approved':
					title = 'Comment awaiting approval by a moderator';
					message += '<li id="dsq-msg-post-not-approved">Your comment must be approved by a moderator before appearing here.</li>';
					break;
				// Cookie: Profile Found
				case 'post_has_profile':
					title = 'Use your existing commenter profile';
					message += '<li id="dsq-msg-post-has-profile">You have just posted your commment as a <span class="dsq-badge-guest">Guest</span>, but you may already have a <span class="logo-disqus">Disqus</span> Profile.<br /><br /><a href="http://disqus.com/claim">Log in and claim this comment!</a></li>';
					break;
				case 'user_created':
					var _data = v.split(':');
					title = 'Profile created!';
					message += '<li id="dsq-msg-user-created">You have just created a <span class="logo-disqus">Disqus</span> Profile, the best way to claim, manage, and track your comments all over the web. \
					<br /><br />A confirmation is being sent to <strong>' + _data[1] + '</strong>. Please check for this email in order to verify your profile. \
					<ul class="dsq-list-tick"> \
						<li>Your username is <strong>' + _data[0] +'</strong>. <a href="http://disqus.com/people/' + _data[0] + '/" target="_blank">Click here to view your public profile</a>.</li> \
						<li>Be sure to set your profile picture, as well as connect your <span class="dsq-badge-facebook">Facebook</span> and <span class="dsq-badge-twitter">Twitter</span> accounts. <a href="http://disqus.com/account/" target="_blank">Click here for account settings</a>.</li> \
					</ul> \
					</li>'
					break;
				default:
					break;
			}
			numAlerts++;
		});

		if(numAlerts > 1) {
			message = '<ul class="dsq-list-bluebullet">' + message;
			message += '</ul>';
			title = 'Thanks for posting!';
		}
		if(numAlerts > 0) {
			if(typeof(disqus_cookie_msgs) == 'function') {
				disqus_cookie_msgs(message, title);
			} else {
				Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, title);
			}
		}
	};

	this.helpBadges = function(post_id) {
		var html = ' \
			<ul class="dsq-popup-help"> \
				<li><span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-verified">Verified</span> has a <span class="logo-disqus">Disqus</span> Profile with a confirmed email address.</li> \
				<li><span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-registered">Registered</span> has a <span class="logo-disqus">Disqus</span> Profile, but has not yet confirmed his or her email address.</li> \
				<li><span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-guest">Guest</span> is not logged in with any account and has not claimed his or her comments.</li> \
				<li class="dsq-help-otheraccts">Other accounts</li> \
				<li><span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-facebook">Facebook</span> is using his or her Facebook profile via Facebook Connect.</li> \
				<li><span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-twitter">Twitter</span> is using his or her Twitter profile via Twitter Sign-in.</li> \
				<li><span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-openid">OpenID</span> is using his or her OpenID.</li> \
			</ul> \
		';

		this.popModal(html, 'Help: Types of Commenters', post_id);
		return;
	};

	this.permalink = function(post_id) {
		var header = 'Link to this comment';
		var body = '<strong>You are anchored to</strong>:<br />' + document.location.protocol + '//' + document.location.host + document.location.pathname + document.location.search + '#comment-' + post_id;

		this.popModal(body, header, post_id);
	};

	this.login = function(header, body) {
		var h = header || 'Login or Register';
		var b = body || '';
		b += Dsq.Templates.frameLogin({id: 'dsq-popup-login'});
		b += '</iframe>'; // HACK: Sometimes there is something funky with the IFRAME SRC that causes no end tag
		this.popModal(b, h, null, true, 'dsq-popup-login');
	};

	this.blacklist = function(id) {
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[id];
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_meta.user_key];
		var title = 'Add to Blacklist';
		var message = ' \
		Adding this person to the blacklist will block him or her from commenting on this site. Check the following types that you would like to add to the blacklist:'
		+ (userData['registered'] ?
			'<div class="dsq-blacklist-option"> \
				<input id="dsq-blacklist-username" type="checkbox" checked> \
				<label for="dsq-blacklist-username"><strong>Username</strong>: ' + userData['username'] + '</label> \
			</div>'
			: '')
		+ (_meta.email ?
			'<div class="dsq-blacklist-option"> \
				<input id="dsq-blacklist-email" type="checkbox" checked> \
				<label for="dsq-blacklist-email"><strong>Email address</strong>: ' + _meta.email + '</label> \
			</div>'
			: '')
		+ '<div class="dsq-blacklist-option"> \
			<input id="dsq-blacklist-ip" type="checkbox" onclick="Dsq.$(\'dsq-blacklist-ip-warning\').style.display=\'block\'"> \
			<label for="dsq-blacklist-ip"><strong>IP address</strong>: ' + _meta.ip + '</label> \
		</div> \
		';

		message += ' \
			<p id="dsq-blacklist-ip-warning" style="display:none">	\
				Note: Blocking this person\'s IP address may also unintentionally prevent others, who share his/her IP address, from commenting on this site. \
				This may include people who are sharing the same computer, living in the same house, or using the same Internet provider. Only block an IP address as a last resort. \
			</p> \
		';

		message += ' \
			<p style="text-align:center"><button onclick="Dsq.Post.blockUser(' + id + '); this.disabled=true; this.innerHTML=\'Just one moment...\'">Add to Blacklist</button></p> \
		';

		Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, title);
	};

	this.remoteAccountSettings = function() {
		var body = '';
		// Set up IFrame.
		var params = {};
		var base_url = 'http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/_auth/embed/remote_settings/';
		var attributes = {id: 'dsq-popup-account-settings'};
		if (typeof disqus_frame_theme != 'undefined') {
			params['theme'] = disqus_frame_theme;
		}

		body = Dsq.Templates._frameGeneric(base_url, params, attributes);
		this.popModal(body, 'Account Settings', null, true, 'dsq-popup-account-settings');
	};

	this.popModal = function(message, title, post_id, use_listener, extra_classes) {
		var container = document.createElement('div');
		var header, body;

		Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true);

		if(typeof(title) == 'undefined') { title = ''; }
		if(typeof(use_listener) == 'undefined') { use_listener = true; }

		if(post_id) {
			container.id = 'dsq-popup-message-' + post_id;
		} else {
			container.id = 'dsq-popup-message';
		}

		header = title;
		body = message;

		container.innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.popupModal(header, body);
		Dsq.Popup.initPopup(container, post_id, 'message', extra_classes);
		if(use_listener) {
			Dsq.Popup.popupListener = Dsq.Utils.addEventListener(document, 'mouseup', Dsq.Popup._closePopup);
		}
	};

	this.popAlert = this.popModal;

	this.loading = function(post_id) {
		var title = Dsq.Strings.JUST_A_MOMENT;
		var body = '<div style="text-align:center; padding: 5px 0 10px 0"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/loading.gif" alt="" /></div>'
		Dsq.Popup.lightbox(body, title, post_id);
	};

	this.lightbox = function(message, title, post_id) {
		// Wraps Dsq.Popup.popModal

		var overlay = document.createElement('div');
		overlay.id = 'dsq-overlay';
		overlay.className = 'dsq-overlay';
		Dsq.$b.appendChild(overlay);
		
		Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, title, post_id, false, 'dsq-lightbox');
	};

	this.popProfile = function(post_id, userKey) {
		var post = Dsq.jsonData['posts'][post_id];
		if (post && post.has_been_anonymized) {
			Dsq.Popup.popModal('This message was anonymized by its previous owner.', 'Anonymized', post_id);
			return;
		}

		if(post_id) {
			userKey = Dsq.jsonData['posts'][post_id].user_key;	
		}
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][userKey];
		var elId = 'dsq-popup-profile-' + userKey;
		var container = document.createElement('div');

		if(this.activePopup.el) {
			this._closePopup(null, true);
			if(this.activePopup.linkClicked) {
				this.activePopup.linkClicked = false;
				return;
			}
		}

		container.id = elId;
		container.innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.popupProfile(userKey);

		this.initPopup(container, post_id, 'profile');
		this.popupListener = Dsq.Utils.addEventListener(document, 'mouseup', this._closePopup);

		if(!this.profileCache[userKey]) {
			Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/embed/profile.js'
				+ '?username=' + userKey
				+ '&anon=' + (userData['registered'] ? 0 : 1)
				+ '&f=' + Dsq.jsonData['request'].forum);
		} else {
			this.updateProfile(userKey);
		}
	};

	this._closePopup = function(e, force) {
		var activePopup = Dsq.Popup.activePopup.el;
		var id = Dsq.Popup.activePopup.id;
		var link = 'dsq-avatar-' + id; // HACK: Specific to profile toggle target

		// HACK: This event should be gone if there is no active popup.
		if(!activePopup) {
			return;
		}
		if(force || !Dsq.Popup.isClicked(e, activePopup.id)) {
			// TODO: This is breaking iE?
			if(Dsq.Popup.popupListener) {
				Dsq.Utils.removeEventListener(Dsq.Popup.popupListener);
			}
			
			// Kill overlay
			var overlay = Dsq.$('dsq-overlay');
			if(overlay) { Dsq.Utils.deleteNode(overlay); }
			
			try {
				Dsq.Utils.deleteNode(activePopup);
			} catch(e) {
				// HACK: IE6 throws an error when using deleteNode() with a node containing a <table> in the html.
				activePopup.parentNode.removeChild(activePopup);
			}
			Dsq.Popup.activePopup = {};
		}

		if(!force && Dsq.Popup.isClicked(e, link)) {
 			Dsq.Popup.activePopup.linkClicked = true;
		}

	};

	this.initPopup = function(popup, post_id, type, extra_classes) {
		popup.className = 'dsq-popup dsq-popup-' + type + ' ' + (extra_classes ? extra_classes : '');
		if(Dsq.Utils.ie6 || Dsq.Utils.ie7) {
			// HACK: We can't modify the body before it's ready, so we need
			//       to use an IE-safe "DOMReady" workaround before loading
			//       our popup.
			Dsq.Utils.execOnReady(function() {Dsq.$b.appendChild(popup); });
		} else {
			Dsq.$b.appendChild(popup);
		}

		popup.style.display = 'block';

		var xPos = (Dsq.Utils.getWindowSize()[0] - popup.offsetWidth) / 2;
		var yPos = (Dsq.Utils.getWindowSize()[1] - popup.offsetHeight) / 2;

		if(Dsq.Utils.ie6) {
			yPos += Dsq.Utils.getScrollPos()[1];
		}

		popup.style.left = xPos + 'px';
		popup.style.top = yPos + 'px';

		Dsq.Popup.activePopup = {
			'el' : popup,
			'id' : post_id,
			'type': type,
			'linkClicked' : false
		};
	};

	this.isClicked = function(e, id) {
		var t = e.target || e.srcElement;
		while(t && t.parentNode) {
			if(t.id == id) {
				return true;
			}

			t = t.parentNode;
		}
		return false;
	};
};
// Dsq.Popup

/**
 * Dsq.Templates
 */
Dsq.Templates = new function() {
	/*
	 * Counter keeping track of the number of posts iterated over.
	 */
	this.postLoopCounter = 0;
	this.filters = {};
	this.addPostContainer = 'dsq-post-add';
	this.textareaContainer = 'dsq-post-add';

	this.registerTemplate = function(name, func) {
		this['$$_' + name] = func;

		if(typeof DsqLocal.Filters != 'undefined'
		&& typeof DsqLocal.Filters[name] == 'function') {
			// Push filters to this.filters to unify code.
			this.filters[name] = this.filters[name] || [];
			this.filters[name].push(DsqLocal.Filters[name]);
		}

		this[name] = function() {
			var ret;

			if(typeof DsqLocal.Templates != 'undefined'
			&& typeof DsqLocal.Templates[name] == 'function') {
				ret = DsqLocal.Templates[name].apply(this, arguments);
			}

			if(ret === undefined) {
				ret = this['$$_' + name].apply(this, arguments);
			}

			if(this.filters[name]) {
				var args = [ret];

				args.push.apply(args, arguments);
				for(var i = 0; i < this.filters[name].length; i++) {
					ret = this.filters[name][i].apply(this, args);
				}
			}

			return ret;
		};
	};

	this.registerFilter = function(name, func) {
		this.filters[name] = this.filters[name] || [];
		this.filters[name].push(func);
	};

	/**
	 * Dsq.Templates.Filters
	 */
	this.Filters = new function() {
		this.commentContainer = function(post_id, s) {
			var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
			var classes = [];
			if(Dsq.jsonData.request.page > 1) {
				classes.push('dsq-append');
			}

			//
			// Extra classes used for custom themes
			//

			if(_meta.depth) {
				classes.push('dsq-comment-child', 'dsq-depth-' + _meta.depth, 'dsq-parent-is-' + _meta.parent_post_id);
			}


			//

			if(_meta.author_is_creator) {
				// TODO: We need to deprecate the "special" class since it is not properly prefixed.
				classes.push('special', 'dsq-special');
			}
			if(_meta.author_is_moderator) {
				classes.push('dsq-moderator');
			}
			classes.push(['dsq-odd', 'dsq-even'][Dsq.Templates.postLoopCounter % 2]);

			s = s.substring(0, s.lastIndexOf('>'));
			return s + ' class="dsq-comment ' + classes.join(' ') + '" style="margin-left:' + _meta.depth*30 + 'px">';
		};

		this.commentContent = function(post_id, s) {
			var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
			if (_meta.killed) {
				return '<em>Comment removed.</em>';
			} else if (!_meta.approved) {
				return '<em>This comment was flagged for review.</em>';
			}

			s = s.replace(Dsq.MEDIA_POST_RE, Dsq.MediaPostHandler);
			return s;
		};
	};

	//
	// Thread
	//
	// TODO: These need to be stripped of all Django template tags.

	this.authPost = function() {
		if (!Dsq.jsonData.context.show_reply) {
			return '';
		}
		var result = [];
		result = result.concat([
				'<div id="dsq-auth"',
						Dsq.jsonData.integration.reply_position ? 'class="dsq-auth-bottom"' : '',
						'>',
					'<div class="dsq-by">',
						'<a href="http://disqus.com" target="_blank">',
							(Dsq.jsonData.integration.disqus_logo ?
								Dsq.Utils.interpolate('<img src="%(media_url)s/images/embed/by-disqus.png" alt="discussion by DISQUS">') :
								Dsq.Utils.interpolate('<img src="%(media_url)s/images/embed/dsq-button-120x19.png" alt="discussion by DISQUS">')
							),
						'</a>',
					'</div>',
					'<div class="dsq-auth-header">',
						'<h3 id="dsq-add-new-comment" class="dsq-h3-addcomment">',
								Dsq.Strings.ADD_NEW_COMMENT,
						'</h3>',
						'<div id="dsq-login">',
						(!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated && Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post
								? '<p class="dsq-login-message" id="dsq-login-message">You are commenting as a <a class="dsq-help" title="Click for more information" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.helpBadges(); return false">Guest</a>. You may select one to log into:</p>'
								: '')
		]);
		if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated) {
			result = result.concat([
							Dsq.Utils.interpolate(
								'<a id="dsq-login-toggle" href="%(disqus_url)s%(login_url)s?next=article:%(thread_id)s" onclick="Dsq.Popup.login(); return false"><img class="dsq-login-icon" src="%(media_url)s/images/dsq-profile-btn.png" title="%(log_into)s" alt="%(log_into)s"/></a>',
								{login_url: Dsq.Urls.LOGIN, thread_id: Dsq.jsonData.thread.id, log_into: Dsq.Strings.LOG_INTO_DISQUS}
								),
							'&nbsp; ',
							(Dsq.jsonData.context.use_fb_connect ?
								'<div id="dsq-fbc-login" onlogin="DisqusFbcParentController.onLogin()" size="medium" background="light" length="short" style="display:inline; margin-right:7px"></div>' :
								''
							),
							(Dsq.jsonData.context.use_twitter_signin ?
								Dsq.Utils.interpolate(
									'<div id="dsq-twitter-login" class="dsq-twitter-login" onclick="Dsq.Twitter.startTwitterConnect();" style="display:inline; cursor: pointer"><img src="%(media_url)s/images/twitter-signin-short.png" style="margin-right:7px" /></div>', {}) : ''),
							(Dsq.jsonData.context.use_openid ?
								Dsq.Utils.interpolate(
									'<div id="dsq-openid-login" class="dsq-openid-login" onclick="Dsq.OpenID.requestURL();" style="display:inline; cursor:pointer;"><img src="%(media_url)s/images/openid-login-button.png"/></div>', {}
								) : '')
			]);
		}
		result = result.concat([
						'</div>', // dsq-login
					'</div>', // dsq-auth-header
					'<div id="dsq-authenticated" class="dsq-authenticated" ',
						Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated ? 'style="display:block"' : '',
						'>',
						'<div class="dsq-authenticated-pic">',
								Dsq.Utils.interpolate('<a href="%(url)s" title="%(request_display_username)s">' +
																			'<img class="dsq-post-avatar" src="%(avatar_url)s" alt="" /></a>',
																			{avatar_url: Dsq.Urls.REQUEST_USER_AVATAR,
																			url: (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote
																					 ? Dsq.jsonData.request.url
																					 : Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + Dsq.Urls.REQUEST_USER_PROFILE) }),
						'</div>',
						'<div class="dsq-authenticated-info">',
							'<ul>',
								'<li>',
									(Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote
										? Dsq.FmtStrings.LOGGED_IN_AS(
												Dsq.Utils.interpolate('<a href="%(url)s" title="%(request_display_username)s">%(request_display_username)s</a>', {url:Dsq.jsonData.request.url})
										  )
										: Dsq.FmtStrings.LOGGED_IN_AS(
												Dsq.Utils.interpolate('<a href="%(disqus_url)s%(profile_url)s" title="%(request_display_username)s">%(request_display_username)s</a>')
											)
									),
								'</li>',
								'<li class="logout">',
									(!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote
										? Dsq.Utils.interpolate('<img class="dsq-login-icon" src="%(media_url)s/images/dsqicon12.png" alt="%(logged_in_as)s"/>&nbsp',
											{logged_in_as: Dsq.FmtStrings.LOGGED_IN_AS(Dsq.jsonData.request.display_username)})
										: ''),

									(!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote
										? Dsq.Utils.interpolate('<a href="%(disqus_url)s%(logout_url)s?ctkn=%(csrf_token)s" title="%(logout_from_disqus)s">',
											{logout_url: Dsq.Urls.LOGOUT, csrf_token: Dsq.CSRF_TOKEN, logout_from_disqus: Dsq.FmtStrings.LOGOUT_FROM('DISQUS')})
										: ((Dsq.jsonData.request.remote_domain == 'twitter')
												? Dsq.Utils.interpolate('using Twitter (<a href="%(disqus_url)s%(logout_url)s?ctkn=%(csrf_token)s" title="Logout">Logout</a>)',
												 {logout_url: Dsq.Urls.LOGOUT, csrf_token: Dsq.CSRF_TOKEN})
												: ((Dsq.jsonData.request.remote_domain == 'openid')
													 ? Dsq.Utils.interpolate('using OpenID (<a href="%(disqus_url)s%(logout_url)s?ctkn=%(csrf_token)s" title="Logout">Logout</a>)',
													 {logout_url: Dsq.Urls.LOGOUT, csrf_token: Dsq.CSRF_TOKEN})
													 : ''
													)
											)
									),

									(!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_remote ? Dsq.FmtStrings.LOGOUT_FROM('<span class="logo-disqus">DISQUS</span>') : ''),
									'</a>',
								'</li>',
							'</ul>',
						'</div>',
					'</div>'
		]);
		if (Dsq.jsonData.context.use_fb_connect) {
			result = result.concat([
					'<div id="dsq-fbc-authenticated" class="dsq-authenticated">',
						'<div id="dsq-fbc-profilepic" class="dsq-authenticated-pic" uid="loggedinuser" type="FB.XFBML.ProfilePic" size="square" facebook-logo="true"></div>',
						'<div class="dsq-authenticated-info">',
							'<ul>',
								'<li>',
									'Logged in as <span id="dsq-fbc-name" uid="loggedinuser" type="FB.XFBML.Name" linked="true" useyou="false"></span>',
								'</li>',
								'<li class="logout">using Facebook Connect <a href="#" onclick="javascript:DisqusFbcParentController.logout();return false;">(Logout)</a></li>',
							'</ul>',
						'</div>',
					'</div>'
			]);
		}
		result = result.concat([
				'</div>', // dsq-auth
				'<div id="dsq-toolbar-items">',
				'</div>'
		]);
		result = result.concat([
					//
					//
					//
				((!Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_post && !Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated) ?
					// Needs to be translated:
					('<p id="dsq-no-anon-msg">Required: Please log into <span class="logo-disqus">Disqus</span> ' +
					(Dsq.jsonData.context.use_fb_connect ? 'or connect with Facebook ' : '') +
					(Dsq.jsonData.context.use_twitter_signin ? 'or sign in with Twitter ' : '') +
					(Dsq.jsonData.context.use_openid ? 'or sign in using OpenID ' : '') +
					Dsq.Utils.interpolate('to comment on <strong>%(forum_name)s</strong>.</p>')) :
					''
				),
				'<div id="dsq-post-add"></div>',
				'<div style="margin:10px 0">',
				((Dsq.jsonData.forum.use_media) ?
						'<a href="#" id="dsq-media-link" onclick="Dsq.Post.showMenu(this, false, \'media\'); return false">' + Dsq.Strings.USE_MEDIA + ' <small>&#9660;</small></a>' :
						''),
				'</div>'
		]);
		return result.join('');
	};


	this.header = function() {

		var html = '\<h3 id="dsq-comments-count" class="dsq-h3-commentcount">\
	 <span id="dsq-num-posts">116</span> Comments\
	 &nbsp;\
	 <span class="dsq-item-feed">\
	 <a href="http://jackandjillpolitics.disqus.com/my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism/latest.rss"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/bullet-feed.png"></a>\
	 </span>\
	 </h3>\
	 <div id="dsq-options" style="margin:15px 0">\
	 <span class="dsq-item-sort">\
	 Sort by\
	 <select id="dsq-sort-select" onchange="Dsq.Thread.sortBy(this.value);">\
	 <option value="hot" selected="selected">Popular now</option>\
	 <option value="best" >Best Rating</option>\
	 <option value="newest" >Newest first</option>\
	 <option value="oldest" >Oldest first</option>\
	 </select>\
	 &nbsp;\
	 </span>\
	 <span class="dsq-item-cp"><a href="http://jackandjillpolitics.disqus.com/my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism/">Community Page</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>\
	 <span class="dsq-item-subscribe">\
	 <img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/email.png" style="width:12px;height:12px;vertical-align:middle">\
	 <span id="dsq-subscribe">\
	 <a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Thread.subscribe(1); return false">Subscribe by email</a>\
	 </span>\
	 </span>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-alerts">\
	 <p><a href="http://disqus.com/profile/login/?next=article:7132144" onclick="Dsq.Popup.login(); return false">You must log into your Disqus Profile in order to post comments.</a></p>\
	 </div>\
		';

		

		
		if (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator) { 
			html = ' \
			<div class="dsq-alert-message dsq-upgrade-message"> \
				<strong>Disqus upgrade available.</strong> Hi ' + Dsq.jsonData.request.display_username + ', this message is being displayed to you because you are a moderator of this site. <a href="#" onclick="Dsq.$(\'dsq-upgrade-message\').style.display=\'block\';this.style.display=\'none\';return false">Click here for details.</a> \
				<div style="display:none; margin-top:10px;" id="dsq-upgrade-message"> \
					A new theme is available with added features. <a href="http://disqus.com/comments/settings/' + Dsq.jsonData.forum.url + '/?p=customize">To change your theme, click here</a> and choose the theme Narcissus. \
					If you do not upgrade, you are missing out on features such as: real-time commenting, new sign-in integrations, and an upgrade interface. \
					<strong>This message will automatically go away in one week.</strong> \
				</div> \
			</div> \
			' + html; 
		}
		return html;
	};

	this.footer = function() {
		var html = Dsq.Templates.pagination();

		
			html += Dsq.Templates.authPost();
		

		html += Dsq.Templates.reactions();

		
			html += Dsq.Templates.trackbacks();
		

		return html;
	};

	this.pagination = function() {
		var html = '';
		
		if (Dsq.$('dsq-pagination')) { Dsq.$('dsq-pagination').innerHTML = ''; }
		if (!Dsq.jsonData.thread.paginate) { return ''; }

		//
		// TODO: num_paginator still uses the template tag for pagination, 
		// 		while append_paginator does it all in JavaScript.
		//		This should all be in JavaScript.
		//

		if (Dsq.jsonData.thread.num_pages > 1 && Dsq.jsonData.request.page < Dsq.jsonData.thread.num_pages) {
			html = ' \<a class="dsq-paginate-append-text" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Thread.paginate(Dsq.jsonData.request.page + 1, this); return false">Show more comments...</a>\
	 <button class="dsq-button-small dsq-paginate-append-button" onclick="Dsq.Thread.paginate(Dsq.jsonData.request.page + 1, this);">Load more comments</button>\
			';
		}
		
		if (Dsq.$('dsq-pagination')) {
			Dsq.$('dsq-pagination').innerHTML = html;
			return '';
		} else {
			return '<div id="dsq-pagination" class="dsq-pagination">' + html + '</div>';
		}
	};

	this.trackbacks = function() {
		var html = '';

		if(typeof DsqLocal != 'undefined' && DsqLocal.trackback_url && DsqLocal.trackbacks) {
			var trackbacks = DsqLocal.trackbacks;
			var trackback_url = DsqLocal.trackback_url;
		} else {
			var trackbacks = [
			
			
			];
			var trackback_url = 'http://jackandjillpolitics.disqus.com/my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism/trackback/';
		}

		html += '<div class="dsq-item-trackback">Trackback URL&nbsp;&nbsp;<input class="dsq-trackback-url" onclick="this.select()" readonly="true" value="' + trackback_url + '"></div>';

		if(trackbacks.length) {
			html += '<ul id="dsq-references">'
			for(var i = 0; i < trackbacks.length; i++) {
				var trackback = trackbacks[i];
				html += '<li><cite><a href="' + trackback.author_url + '" rel="nofollow">' + trackback.author_name + '</a></cite> \
						<p class="dsq-meta">' + trackback.date + '</p> \
						<p class="dsq-content">' + trackback.excerpt + '</p></li>';
			}
			html += '</ul>';
			html = '<h3 class="dsq-h3-trackbacks">Trackbacks</h3>' + html;
		}

		return html;
	}

	this.showRetweets = function(id, limit, element_id /* Optional */) {
		var source, html = '';

		for (var i = 0, reaction; reaction = Dsq.jsonData.reactions[i]; i++) {
			if (reaction.id === id) {
				source = reaction.retweets;
			}
		}

		if (source) {
			if (limit === 0) {
				limit = source.length;
			}

			for (var j = 0; j < limit; j++) {
				var rt = source[j];
				html += '<a href="' + rt.url + '">' + rt.author_name + '</a>'	+ ((j === (limit - 1)) ? '.' : ', ');
			}
		}

		if (element_id === undefined) {
			return html;
		}

		var element = document.getElementById(element_id);
		element.innerHTML = html;
		return element;
	};

	this.showMoreReactions = function(reactions, has_more, start, limit) {
		var link = document.getElementById('dsq-show-more-reactions');
		var container = link.parentNode;
		container.removeChild(link);

		for (var i = 0, reaction; reaction = reactions[i]; i++) {
			var el = Dsq.Templates.generateReactionHTML(reaction);
			if (el) {
				container.innerHTML += el;
			}
		}

		if (has_more) {
			var d = Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url;
			var f = Dsq.jsonData.forum.url;
			var t = Dsq.jsonData.thread.id;
			var s = start;
			var l = limit;

			var handler = 'Dsq.Utils.execScript(\'' + d + '/forums/' + f + '/more_reactions.js?t=' + t + '&s=' + s + '&l=' + l + '\', true); return false;';
			container.innerHTML += '<li id="dsq-show-more-reactions"><a href="#" onclick="' + handler + '">Show more reactions</a></li>';
		}
	};

	this.generateReactionHTML = function(reaction) {
		if (reaction.body === null || reaction.body == '') {
			return;
		}

		if (reaction.author_name === '') {
			reaction.author_name = '&nbsp;';
		}

		if (reaction.url === '') {
			reaction.url = reaction.get_service_url;
		}

		/* Reaction HTML begins */
		var item = '<li class="dsq-reaction" id="dsq-reaction-' + reaction.id + '">'
			+ '<div class="dsq-reaction-header">'
			+ '<div class="dsq-header-avatar">';

		if (reaction.author_url && reaction.author_url !== '') {
			item += '<a target="_blank" href="' + reaction.author_url +'">';
		} else {
			item += '<a target="_blank" href="#" onclick="return false;">';
		}

		if (reaction.avatar_url && reaction.avatar_url !== '') {
			item += '<img src="' + reaction.avatar_url + '"/>';
		} else {
			item += '<img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.media_url + '/images/noavatar32.png"/>';
		}

		var service_icon = (reaction.get_service_name == 'trackback' || reaction.get_service_name == 'pingback' ? 'rss' : reaction.get_service_name.replace(' ', ''));
		item += '<img class="dsq-service-icon" src="' + Dsq.jsonData.media_url + '/images/reactions/services/' + service_icon + '.png"/>'
			+ '</a></div>'
			+ '<cite><span>' + reaction.author_name + '</span></cite>'
			+ '<span class="dsq-header-meta"><a class="dsq-header-time">' + reaction.date_created + '</a></span>'
			+ '</div><div class="dsq-reaction-body">'
			+ '<div class="dsq-reaction-message">' + reaction.body + '</div>'
			+ '<div class="dsq-reaction-footer">From <a class="dsq-service-name" target="_blank" href="' + reaction.url + '">' + reaction.get_service_name + '</a> '
			+ 'via ' + (reaction.source == 'backtype' ? '<a href="http://backtype.com/">BackType</a>' : '<a href="' + reaction.source_url + '">UberVU</a>')
			+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator || Dsq.jsonData.request.is_global_moderator ? '&nbsp;&bull;&nbsp;<a class="dsq-hide-reaction" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Reaction.hide(' + reaction.id + '); return false;">Hide</a>' : '') + '</div></div>';

		if(reaction.retweets) {
			var num_retweets = reaction.retweets.length;
			if (num_retweets > 0) {
				item += '<div class="dsq-reaction-retweets">';
				if (num_retweets == 1) {
					item += 'One more retweet from <a href="' + reaction.retweets[0].url + '">'  + reaction.retweets[0].author_name + '</a>';
				} else {
					item += (num_retweets + ' more retweets from ');

					item += '<span id="dsq-reaction-retweets-' + reaction.id + '">';
					var n_tweets = (num_retweets > 15) ? 15 : num_retweets;
					item += Dsq.Templates.showRetweets(reaction.id, n_tweets);

					if (n_tweets != num_retweets) {
						item += '</span> <a onclick="Dsq.Templates.showRetweets(' + reaction.id + ', 0, \'dsq-reaction-retweets-' + reaction.id + '\');'
							+ 'this.parentNode.removeChild(this); return false;" href="#">Show all</a>';
					}
				}
				item += '</div>';
			}
		}

		item += '</li>'; /* Reaction HTML ends */
		return item;
	};

	this.reactions = function() {
		var html, reaction;

		if (Dsq.jsonData.reactions === undefined || Dsq.jsonData.reactions.length === 0) {
			return '';
		}

		html = '';
		for (var i = 0; reaction = Dsq.jsonData.reactions[i]; i++) {
			var item = Dsq.Templates.generateReactionHTML(reaction);
			if (item) {
				html += item;
			}
		}

		if (Dsq.jsonData.has_more_reactions) {
			var d = Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url;
			var f = Dsq.jsonData.forum.url;
			var t = Dsq.jsonData.thread.id;
			var s = Dsq.jsonData.reactions_start;
			var l = Dsq.jsonData.reactions_limit;

			var handler = 'Dsq.Utils.execScript(\'' + d + '/forums/' + f + '/more_reactions.js?t=' + t + '&s=' + s + '&l=' + l + '\', true); return false;';
			html += '<li id="dsq-show-more-reactions"><a href="#" onclick="' + handler + '">Show more reactions</a></li>';
		}

		return '<h3 class="dsq-h3-reactions">Reactions</h3><ul id="dsq-reactions" class="dsq-reactions">' + html + '</ul>';
	};
	
	this.missingPermissions = function() {
		return '	<p><a href="http://disqus.com/profile/login/?next=article:7132144" onclick="Dsq.Popup.login(); return false">You must log into your Disqus Profile in order to post comments.</a></p> \n';
	};

	//
	// Post
	//

	this.prependPost = function(post_id) {
		var html = '<div id="comment-' + post_id + '"></div>';
		return html;
	};

	this.appendPost = function(post_id) {
		var html = '<div id="dsq-comment-reply-' + post_id + '"></div>';
		return html;
	};

	this.postPrependHeader = function(post_id) {
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_meta.user_key];

		var _includeServices = function() {
			var userServices = Dsq.Post.getUserServices(null, post_id);
			var html = '';
			var hiddenThreshold = 3; // Define # of services to show before stuffing them in hidden div

			for(var i = 0; i < userServices.length; i++) {
				html +=
				(i == hiddenThreshold
					? '<li id="dsq-drop-hidden-' + post_id +'" class="dsq-drop-hidden"><ul>'
					: '')
				+ '<li class="dsq-drop-services"> \
					<a class="dsq-service-' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '" href="' + userServices[i].url + '" target="_blank"> \
						<img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.media_url + '/images/embed/services/' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '.png" alt="' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '">'
					+ userServices[i].name
					+ '</a> \
				</li>';
			}

			if(i >= hiddenThreshold) {
				html += '</ul></li> \
				<li id="dsq-drop-more-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-drop-more"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.dropProfileMore(this, '+ post_id + '); return false"><small>&#9660;</small></a></li> \
				';
			}
			return html;
		};

		return ' \
			<div class="dsq-header-avatar" id="dsq-header-avatar-' + post_id + '" onmouseover="Dsq.Post.dropProfile(' + post_id + ')"> \
				<a id="dsq-avatar-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-avatar" href="' + userData.url + '" onclick="Dsq.Popup.popProfile(' + post_id + '); return false;">'
			+ (Dsq.jsonData.forum.show_avatar
				? '<img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.users[_meta.user_key].avatar + '" alt="" />'
				: '')
			+ '</a>'
			+ '</div> \
		';
	};

	this.postAppendHeader = function(post_id) {
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];

		return ''
			+ (_meta.author_is_moderator
				? '<img class="dsq-mod-star" src="http://media.disqus.com/images/bullet-star.png" title="Moderator" alt="" />'
				: '')
			+ '<span class="dsq-header-meta"> \
				<a id="dsq-time-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-header-time" href="#comment-' + post_id + '" title="Permalink">' + _meta.date + '</a> \
			</span>';
	};

	this.preBody = function(post_id) {
		return '';
	}

	this.postBody = function(post_id) {
		// TODO: Deprecate flagging conditional
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		return ''
			+ (_meta.edited
				? '<p class="dsq-editedtxt">(Edited by a moderator)</p>'
				: '')
			;
	};

	this.postFooter = function(post_id) {
		// TODO: Use media should be conditional
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		if(_meta.killed) { return ''; }

		return ' \
			<div class="dsq-comment-footer" id="dsq-comment-footer-' + post_id + '"> \
				<div id="dsq-points-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-likedtxt">'
				+ (_meta.points
					? _meta.points + Dsq.Utils.pluralize(_meta.points, ' person', ' people') + ' liked this comment.'
					: '')
				+ '</div>'
				+ '<ul class="dsq-comment-options dsq-list-style">'
				+ (_meta.votable
					? '<li class="dsq-list-first dsq-rate" id="dsq-rate-cont-' + post_id + '">'
					+ (!_meta.up_voted
						? '<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.rate(this, ' + post_id + ', 1); return false;">Like</a>'
						: 'You liked this.') + '</li>'
					: '')
				+ '<li class="dsq-report' + (!_meta.votable ? ' dsq-list-first' : '') + '" id="dsq-post-report-' + post_id + '"><a href="#" class="dsq-post-report" onclick="Dsq.Post.report(' + post_id + ', false); return false;">Report</a></li> \
				</ul> \
				<ul class="dsq-list-style">'
				+ (_meta.can_reply
					? '<li class="dsq-list-first"><a href="#" id="dsq-reply-link-' + post_id +'" onclick="Dsq.Post.toggleReply(this, ' + post_id +'); return false;">Reply</a></li>'
					: '')
				+ (_meta.can_reply && !_meta.has_replies && _meta.from_request_user
					? '<li id="dsq-edit-el-' + post_id + '"><a id="dsq-edit-link-' + post_id + '" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.edit(this, ' + post_id + '); return false;">Edit</a></li>'
					: '')
				+ '<li class="' + (!_meta.can_reply ? 'dsq-list-first' : '') + '" id="dsq-more-el-' + post_id + '"><a id="dsq-more-link-' + post_id + '" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.showMenu(this, ' + post_id + ', \'more\'); return false">More <small>&#9660;</small></a></li>'
				+ (Dsq.jsonData.forum.use_media
					? '<li id="dsq-media-el-' + post_id +'" style="display:none"><a id="dsq-media-link-' + post_id + '" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.showMenu(this, ' + post_id + ', \'media\'); return false">Use Media <small>&#9660;</small></a></li>'
					: '')
				+ '</ul>'
				+ '<div id="dsq-reply-bar-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-reply-bar" style="display:none"> \
						<div id="dsq-reply-bar-items-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-reply-bar-items"> \
						</div> \
						<div id="dsq-reply-bar-auth-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-reply-bar-auth"> \
							 \
								 \
									<a href="#" class="dsq-help dsq-reply-req-opt" title="You must log into an account in order to comment on Jack and Jill Politics" onclick="Dsq.Popup.helpBadges(); return false">Required:</a> \
								 \
								<img class="dsq-login-icon" src="http://media.disqus.com/images/dsq-favicon-16x16.png" alt="" /> \
								<a id="dsq-reply-login-' + post_id + '" href="http://disqus.com/profile/login/?next=article:7132144" onclick="Dsq.Popup.login(); return false">Login</a> \
								 \
									&nbsp;or&nbsp; \
									<img class="fb_login_image" src="http://static.ak.fbcdn.net/images/fbconnect/login-buttons/connect_light_small_short.gif" alt="Facebook Connect"/> \
									<a href="#" onclick="FB.Connect.requireSession(DisqusFbcParentController.onLogin); return false;">Connect</a> \
								 \
								&nbsp;or&nbsp; \
									<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/twitter-signin-icon.png" alt="" /> \
									<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Twitter.startTwitterConnect(); return false">Sign-in</a> \
								 \
								 \
							 \
						</div> \
					</div> \
					<div id="dsq-reply-' + post_id + '"></div> \
			</div> \
		';
	};

	//
	// Iframes
	//

	this._makeAttributes = function(attributes) {
		// Makes a tag attributes string out of an object.
		// Caller is responsible for making sure nothing needs to be escaped.
		var result = [];
		for (key in attributes) {
			result.push(' ' + key + '="' + attributes[key] + '"');
		}
		result = result.join('');
		return result;
	};

	this._frameGeneric = function(base_url, params, attributes) {
		if(typeof(disqus_callback_params) == 'undefined') {
			disqus_callback_params = '';
		}

		var default_params = {
			// TODO: These should be moved to Dsq.jsonData.
			'f'				: 'jackandjillpolitics',
			't'				: 'my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism',
			// Do we need encodeURIComponent here?
			'ifrs'			: encodeURIComponent(disqus_iframe_css),
			'to_redirect'	: encodeURIComponent(window.location),
			'cbp'			: disqus_callback_params,
			'ff'			: Dsq.Thread.ff,
			'fc'			: Dsq.Thread.fc,
			'ac'			: Dsq.Thread.ac,
			'default_text'	: disqus_default_text
		};

		base_url += '?' + (new Date()).getTime();
		// Add params to default_params.
		if(params) {
			for(var key in params) {
				if(params.hasOwnProperty(key)) {
					default_params[key] = encodeURIComponent(params[key]);
				}
			}
		}
		// Build querystring.
		for(var key in default_params) {
			if(default_params[key] && default_params.hasOwnProperty(key)) {
				base_url += '&' + key + '=' + default_params[key];
			}
		}

		return [
			'<iframe marginwidth="0" marginheight="0" hspace="0" vspace="0" frameborder="0"',
			(' allowtransparency="true" src="' + base_url + '"'),
			this._makeAttributes(attributes),
			'</iframe>'].join('');
	};

	this.frameLogin = function(opt_attributes) {
		var params = {};
		var base_url = 'http://disqus.com/embed/login.html';
		var attributes = opt_attributes || {};
		attributes['class'] = 'dsq-post-login';

		if(typeof disqus_frame_theme != 'undefined') {
			params['theme'] = disqus_frame_theme;
		}
		return this._frameGeneric(base_url, params, attributes);
	};

	this.frameReply = function(post_id, extra_params, attributes) {
		// Returns the HTML for a reply iframe. Called by Dsq.Iframes.setReplyIframeToContainer
		var _meta = (typeof post_id != 'undefined') ? Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id] : false;
		var base_url = Dsq.Urls.REPLY;
		var params = {
			'def_email'		: disqus_def_email,
			'def_name'		: disqus_def_name
		};
		if(extra_params) {
			for(var key in extra_params) {
				if(extra_params.hasOwnProperty(key)) {
					params[key] = extra_params[key];
				}
			}
		}
		if(_meta) {
			params['parent_post'] = post_id;
		}
		if(typeof disqus_per_page != 'undefined') {
			params['per_page'] = disqus_per_page;
		}
		if(typeof disqus_frame_theme != 'undefined') {
			params['theme'] = disqus_frame_theme;
		}
		if(Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated) {
			attributes['class'] += '-authenticated';
		}
		return this._frameGeneric(base_url, params, attributes);
	};

	this.frameEdit = function(post_id) {
		var _meta = (typeof post_id != 'undefined') ? Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id] : false;
		var base_url = 'http://disqus.com/embed/edit.html';
		var params = {
			'p' : post_id
		};
		return this._frameGeneric(base_url, params, {'class': 'dsq-post-edit', 'name': 'dsq-edit_' + post_id + '-frame'});
	};

	//
	// Menus
	//

	this.menuMore = function(post_id) {
		// TODO: "Remove post" button should hide menu.
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_meta.user_key];
		return ' \
			<li><a href="#comment-' + post_id + '" onclick="Dsq.Popup.permalink(' + post_id + ')">Link</a></li> \
			<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.popProfile(' + post_id + '); return false;">Profile</a></li>'
	+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator || Dsq.jsonData.request.is_global_moderator
		? '	<li class="dsq-menu-sep"></li>' + (_meta.email ? '<li class="dsq-admin-email">' + _meta.email + '</li>' : '')
		+ '	<li class="dsq-admin-ip">' + _meta.ip + '</li> \
			<li class="dsq-menu-sep"></li>'
		+ (Dsq.jsonData.request.moderator_can_edit
			? ' <li class="dsq-admin-edit"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.edit(this, ' + post_id + '); return false;">Edit Comment</a></li>'
			: '')
		+ ' <li class="dsq-remove"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.removePost(' + post_id + ', 1); return false;">Remove Comment</a></li> \
			<li class="dsq-report-spam"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.reportSpam(' + post_id + '); return false;">Mark Spam</a></li> \
			<li class="dsq-block-user"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.blacklist(' + post_id + '); return false">Block User</a></li>'
		: '');
	};

	this.menuMedia = function(post_id) {
		return ' \
			<li><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.toggleMediaReply(this, ' + post_id + ', \'seesmic\'); return false;">Record video</a></li> \
		';
	};

	this.dropProfile = function(post_id) {
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id];
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][_meta.user_key];

		var _includeServices = function() {
			var userServices = Dsq.Post.getUserServices(null, post_id);
			var html = '';
			var hiddenThreshold = 3; // Define # of services to show before stuffing them in hidden div

			for(var i = 0; i < userServices.length; i++) {
				html +=
				(i == hiddenThreshold
					? '<li id="dsq-drop-hidden-' + post_id +'" class="dsq-drop-hidden"><ul>'
					: '')
				+ '<li class="dsq-drop-services"> \
					<a class="dsq-service-' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '" href="' + userServices[i].url + '" target="_blank"> \
						<img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.media_url + '/images/embed/services/' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '.png" alt="' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '">'
					+ userServices[i].name
					+ '</a> \
				</li>';
			}

			if(i >= hiddenThreshold) {
				html += '</ul></li> \
				<li id="dsq-drop-more-' + post_id + '" class="dsq-drop-more"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Post.dropProfileMore(this, '+ post_id + '); return false"><small>&#9660;</small></a></li> \
				';
			}
			return html;
		};


		var menu = '<li class="dsq-drop-showlnk"><a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup.popProfile(' + post_id + '); return false;">Expand &#8663;</a></li>';
		var pointsMessage = '';
		if (userData['registered']) {
			pointsMessage = 'with ' + userData['points'] + ' points (more points are better).';
		}

		if (userData['is_remote']) {
			var domain = userData['remote_domain_name'];
			menu += '<li class="dsq-drop-badge" title="' + userData['display_name'] + ' is a ' + domain + ' user ' + pointsMessage + '" onclick="Dsq.Popup.helpBadges()">';
			menu += '<span class="dsq-badge-' + domain.toLowerCase() + '">' + domain + '</span></li>';
		} else if (userData['registered']) {
			if (userData['verified']) {
				menu += '<li class="dsq-drop-badge" title="' + userData['display_name'] + ' has a verified commenter profile ' + pointsMessage + '" onclick="Dsq.Popup.helpBadges()">';
				menu += '<span class="dsq-badge-verified">Verified</span></li>';
			} else {
				menu += '<li class="dsq-drop-badge" title="' + userData['display_name'] + ' has a registered, but unverified, commenter profile ' + pointsMessage + '" onclick="Dsq.Popup.helpBadges()">';
				menu += '<span class="dsq-badge-registered">Registered</span></li>';
			}
		} else {
			menu += '<li class="dsq-drop-badge" title="' + userData['display_name'] + ' has not claimed this commenter profile." onclick="Dsq.Popup.helpBadges()"><span class="dsq-badge-guest">Guest</span></li>';
		}

		menu += _includeServices();
		return menu;
	};

	//
	// Popups
	//

	this._popupGeneric = function(content) {
		return ' \
		<div class="dsq-popup-content"> \
			<div class="dsq-popup-top"></div> \
			<div class="dsq-popup-body" class="clearfix"> \
				<div class="dsq-popup-body-padding"> \
					<div class="dsq-popup-header"> \
						<a class="dsq-close-link" href="#" onclick="Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true); return false"><img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/modal-close.png" alt="" /></a>'
						+ content['header']
					+ '</div>'
					+ content['body']
					+ '<div class="powered-by"><a href="http://disqus.com/comments/">Powered by <img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/embed/disqus-logo.png" alt="Disqus Comments" style="margin-bottom:-5px" /></a></div> \
				</div> <!-- padding --> \
			</div> <!-- body --> \
			<div class="dsq-popup-bottom"></div> \
		</div> \
		';
	};

	this.popupProfile = function(user_key) {
		var userServices = Dsq.Post.getUserServices(user_key, null);
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][user_key];
		var headerHtml = '';
		var bodyHtml = '';
		var content = {};

		var _includeServices = function() {
			var html = '';
			for(var i = 0; i < userServices.length; i++) {
				html +=
				(i == 0
					? '<h4>Connections</h4><ul>'
					: '')
				+ '<li> \
					<img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.media_url + '/images/embed/services/' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '.png" alt="' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '" title="' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '" /> \
					<a class="dsq-service-' + userServices[i].name.toLowerCase() + '" href="' + userServices[i].url + '" target="_blank">'
					+ userServices[i].name
					+ '</a> \
				</li>'
				+ (i+1 == userServices.length ? '</ul>' : '');
			}
			return html;
		};

		headerHtml = ' \
			<table> \
				<tr> \
					<td> \
						<a class="dsq-profile-userurl" href="' + userData.url + '"><img class="dsq-popup-profile-avatar" src="' + userData['avatar'] + '" alt="" /></a> \
					</td> \
					<td> \
						<div class="dsq-popup-profile-user"> \
							<h3>' + userData['display_name'] + '</h3> \
							<div class="dsq-popup-profile-user-stats" id="dsq-popup-profile-user-stats-' + user_key + '">Loading...</div> \
						</div> \
					</td> \
				</tr> \
			</table> \
		';

		bodyHtml = ' \
			<div class="dsq-popup-profile-state"> \
				This is a&nbsp;<span class="'
					+ (userData['registered']
						? (userData['verified']
							? ' dsq-badge-verified'
							: (userData['is_remote']
								? ' dsq-badge-' + userData['remote_domain_name'].toLowerCase()
								: ' dsq-badge-registered')
							)
							: ' dsq-badge-guest') + '">'
			+ (userData['registered']
				? (userData['verified']
					? 'Verified'
					: (userData['is_remote']
						 ? userData['remote_domain_name']
						 : 'Registered')
					)
				: 'Guest')
			+ '</span>&nbsp;commenter profile.'
			+ '&nbsp;<a class="dsq-profile-userurl" href="' + userData.url + '"><strong>View more comments </strong></a>'
			+ (!userData['points']
				? '<p class="dsq-popup-notice">If this is you, <a href="http://disqus.com/profile" target="_blank">claim it now</a> to manage your comments.</p>'
				: '')
			+ ((userData['registered'] && !userData['verified'] && (Dsq.jsonData.request.username && (Dsq.jsonData.request.username == userData['username'])) && !userData['is_remote'])
				? '<p class="dsq-popup-notice"><strong>Alert</strong>: You have not verified this account. <a href="http://disqus.com/verify">Verify it now.</a></p>'
				: '')
			+ '</div> \
			<div id="dsq-profile-status-' + user_key + '" class="dsq-popup-profile-status" style="display:none"></div> \
			<div class="dsq-popup-profile-snapshot"> \
				<table> \
					<tr> \
						<td> \
							<div id="dsq-popup-profile-active-sites-wrapper-' + user_key + '"> \
								<h4>Most active sites</h4> \
								<ul id="dsq-popup-profile-active-sites-' + user_key + '"> \
									<li>Loading...</li> \
								</ul> \
							</div> \
						</td> \
						<td>'
							+ _includeServices()
							+ '<div id="dsq-popup-profile-moderated-wrapper-' + user_key + '"> \
								<h4>Moderator of</h4> \
								<ul id="dsq-popup-profile-moderated-' + user_key + '"> \
									<li>Loading...</li> \
								</ul> \
							</div> \
						</td> \
					</tr> \
				</table> \
			</div> \
			';

		content = {
			'header': headerHtml,
			'body': bodyHtml
		};

		return this._popupGeneric(content);
	};

	this.popupReblog = function() {
		var headerHtml = '';
		var bodyHtml = '';
		var content = {};

		headerHtml = ' \
			<cite><span>Reblog this comment</span></cite> \
		';

		bodyHtml = ' \
			<div id="dsq-reblog-form" class="dsq-reblog-form"> \
			</div> \
		';

		content = {
			'header': headerHtml,
			'body': bodyHtml
		};

		return this._popupGeneric(content);
	};

	this.popupModal = function(title, message) {
		var headerHtml = '';
		var bodyHtml = '';
		var content = {};

		headerHtml = ' \
			<h3>' + title + '</h3> \
		';

		bodyHtml = message;

		content = {
			'header': headerHtml,
			'body': bodyHtml
		};

		return this._popupGeneric(content);
	};

	this.alertContent = function(name, post_id) {
		var alert = {
			'post_not_approved': {
				'title': 'Comment awaiting approval by a moderator',
				'message': 'Thanks for posting. Your comment must be approved by a moderator before appearing here.'
			},
			'post_has_profile': {
				'title': 'Use your existing commenter profile',
				'message': 'You have just posted your commment as a <span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-guest">Guest</span>, but you may already have a <span class="dsq-badge dsq-badge-registered">Registered</span> commenter profile.<br /><br /><a href="http://disqus.com/claim">Log in and claim this comment!</a>'
			}
		};
		return alert[name] || false;
	};

	//
	// Actions
	//

	this.voted = function(post_id, points, vote) {
		// Update number of points
		Dsq.$('dsq-points-' + post_id).innerHTML = points + Dsq.Utils.pluralize(points, ' person', ' people') + ' liked this comment.';

		// Update link text
		if(vote) {
			Dsq.$('dsq-rate-cont-' + post_id).innerHTML = 'You liked this.';
		}
	};

	this.subscribed = function(status) {
		var title, message;

		if(status) {
			title = 'Subscribed!';
			message = 'You have subscribed to this comment thread. New comments will be sent directly to your email inbox, where you may read and respond by email.';
			Dsq.$('dsq-subscribe').innerHTML = ' \
				<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Thread.subscribe(0); return false">Unsubscribe</a> \
			';
		} else {
			title = 'Unsubscribed';
			message = 'You have unsubscribed to this comment thread. New comments will no longer be sent to your email inbox.';
			Dsq.$('dsq-subscribe').innerHTML = ' \
				<a href="#" onclick="Dsq.Thread.subscribe(1); return false">Subscribe by email</a> \
			';
		}

		Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, title);

	};
	
	this.highlighted = function() {
		Dsq.Popup.popModal('This comment has been highlighted.', 'Highlighted comment');
	};

	//
	// Media
	//

	this.mediaSeesmic = function(id, thumb) {
		return ' \
			<div id="dsq-seesmic-' + id + '_preview" class="dsq-seesmic-preview"><a href="http://www.seesmic.com/video/' + id + '" target="_blank" class="see_link">&nbsp;</a> \
				<div style="display:block;width:160px; height:120px; border:none; background-image:url(http://t.seesmic.com/thumbnail/' + thumb + ')"> \
					<div id="dsq-seesmic-' + id + '_hide" class="seePlayOverlay" style="display:none;"><img onclick="see_play_video(\'' + id + '\',false)" src="http://media.disqus.com/images/seesmic/stopOverlay.png" width="50" height="50" style="cursor:pointer; cursor:hand; padding-top: 30px; padding-left: 50px" alt="" /></div> \
					<div id="dsq-seesmic-' + id + '_show" class="seePlayOverlay"><img onclick="see_play_video(\'' + id + '\',true)" src="http://media.disqus.com/images/seesmic/playOverlay.png" width="50" height="50" style="cursor:pointer; cursor:hand; border:none; padding-top: 30px; padding-left: 50px" alt="" /></div> \
				</div> \
			</div> \
			<div id="' + id + '_content" style="display:block; width:100%; padding-top:5px"></div> \
		';
	};

	//
	// Callbacks
	//

	this.postComment_onSuccess = function(parent_post_id) {
		// Increment post count
		var num_posts = Dsq.$('dsq-num-posts');
		var total_posts = Dsq.$('dsq-total-posts');
		
		if (num_posts) { 
			num_posts.innerHTML = parseInt(num_posts.innerHTML) + 1;
		}
		if (total_posts) { 
			total_posts.innerHTML = parseInt(total_posts.innerHTML) + 1;
		}
	};
};
// Dsq.Templates


/**
 * Dsq.Post
 */
Dsq.Post = new function() {
	this.openedMenu = {};
	this.menuEventListener = null;
	this.stateReplyToggled = {};
	this.stateEditToggled = {};
	this.stateRecordLink = {};

	/**
	 * Inserts a new post into the document.
	 *
	 * @param after_id {Number}	Insert a post before specified id.  If after_id
	 *							evaluates to false, then post in the front.  If
	 *							after_id is -1, post at the end.
	 */
	this.insert = function(after_id, id, message, author) {
		// Skeleton template from thread_posts.html.
		var skeleton = ' \
			<li id="dsq-comment-%(id)s"> \
				<div id="dsq-comment-header-%(id)s" class="dsq-comment-header"> \
					<cite id="dsq-cite-%(id)s" class="dsq-comment-cite"> \
						<a id="dsq-author-user-%(id)s" href="%(author_url)s" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">%(author_name)s</a> \
					</cite> \
				</div> \
				<div id="dsq-comment-body-%(id)s" class="dsq-comment-body"> \
					<div id="dsq-comment-message-%(id)s" class="dsq-comment-message">%(message)s</div> \
				</div> \
			</li> \
		';
		var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[id];
		var _user_meta = Dsq.jsonData.users[_meta.user_key];
		var markup = Dsq.Utils.interpolate(skeleton, {
			id: id,
			message: message,
			author_url: _user_meta.blog,
			author_name: _user_meta.display_name
		});
		var div = document.createElement('div');
		markup = markup.replace(Dsq.COMMENTS_RE, Dsq.CommentsHandler);
		div.innerHTML = markup;

		if (after_id === -1) {
			Dsq.$('dsq-comments').appendChild(div);
		} else if (!after_id) {
			Dsq.$('dsq-comments').insertBefore(div, Dsq.$('dsq-comments').firstChild);
		} else if (Dsq.$('dsq-comment-' + after_id)) {
			// Get next node after "after_id", so we can insert before it.
			// If "after_id" is the last comment, the target node is the
			// last node.
			
			// var append_post_id = Dsq.Templates.appendPost(after_id).replace('<div id="','').replace('"></div>', '');
			var append_post_id = 'dsq-append-post-' + after_id;
			var node = Dsq.$(append_post_id);
			while (node = node.nextSibling) {
				if (!node || node.nodeType == 1) { // 1 == Node.ELEMENT_NODE
					break;
				}
			}
			if (!node) {
				node = Dsq.$(append_post_id);
			}
			node.parentNode.insertBefore(div, node);
		}
	};

	this.incrementPostCount = function() {
		
		var num_posts = Dsq.$('dsq-num-posts');
		var total_posts = Dsq.$('dsq-total-posts');

		if (num_posts) {
			num_posts.innerHTML = parseInt(num_posts.innerHTML, 10) + 1;
		}
		if (total_posts) {
			total_posts.innerHTML = parseInt(total_posts.innerHTML, 10) + 1;
		}
	}
	
	this.outlineComment = function(post_id) {
		Dsq.$('dsq-comment-' + post_id).className += ' dsq-comment-outline';
		setTimeout("(function () { Dsq.Post.clearOutlineComment(" + post_id + ") })()", 3000);
	};
	
	this.clearOutlineComment = function(post_id) {
		Dsq.$('dsq-comment-' + post_id).className = Dsq.$('dsq-comment-' + post_id).className.replace('dsq-comment-outline', '');
	};

	this.showMenu = function(el, id, name) {
		var anchorPos = Dsq.Utils.findPos(el);
		var menu = document.createElement('ul');

		if(this.openedMenu) {
			if(this.openedMenu.linkClicked) {
				this.openedMenu.linkClicked = false;
				return;
			}
		}

		switch(name) {
			case 'more':
				menu.innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.menuMore(id);
				break;
			case 'media':
				menu.innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.menuMedia(id);
				break;
			default:
				break;
		}

		// Add menu to document body
		menu.id = 'dsq-menu-' + id;
		menu.className = 'dsq-menu';
		Dsq.$b.appendChild(menu);

		// Position and show
		anchorPos[1] += 15;
		menu.style.left = anchorPos[0] + 'px';
		menu.style.top = anchorPos[1] + 'px';
		menu.style.display = 'block';

		// Set global reference
		this.openedMenu = {
			'el' : menu,
			'id' : id,
			'name' : name,
			'linkClicked' : false
		};

		// Set listener
		this.menuEventListener = Dsq.Utils.addEventListener(document, 'mouseup', this._hideMenu);
	};

	this._hideMenu = function(e) {
		var el = e.target || e.srcElement;
		var openedMenu = Dsq.Post.openedMenu.el;
		var id = Dsq.Post.openedMenu.id;

		if(!id) {
			var link = 'dsq-' + Dsq.Post.openedMenu.name + '-link';
		} else {
			var link = 'dsq-' + Dsq.Post.openedMenu.name + '-link-' + id;
		}

		if(!openedMenu) {
			return;
		}

		if(!Dsq.Popup.isClicked(e, openedMenu.id)) {
			openedMenu.style.display = 'none';
			Dsq.Utils.removeEventListener(Dsq.Post.menuEventListener);
			Dsq.Utils.deleteNode(openedMenu);

		} else {
			// Hide the menu if a link was clicked inside the menu.  We can't
			// completely remove the menu until the onclick event on the link
			// fires, but the menuEventListener will prevent multiple menus
			// from polluting the DOM.
			if(el && typeof el.href != 'undefined') {
				openedMenu.style.display = 'none';
				Dsq.Post.openedMenu.el = null;
			}
		}

		if(Dsq.Popup.isClicked(e, link)) {
 			Dsq.Post.openedMenu.linkClicked = true;
		}
	};


	this.getUserServices = function(user_key, id) {
		if(!user_key && id) {
			var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[id];
			user_key = _meta.user_key;
		}
		var userData = Dsq.jsonData['users'][user_key];
		var userServices = [];

		// Keep a full list of supported services. This is the order they will display in the drop-profile.
		// Each service must have a corresponding case in _buildServiceUrl()
		var supportedServices = ['blog', 'twitter', 'facebook', 'tumblr'];

		function _buildServiceUrl(serviceName) {
			var data = userData[serviceName];
			var services = {
				blog:		function(d) { return d; },
				twitter:	function(d) { return d; },
				facebook:	function(d) { return d; },
				tumblr:		function(d) { return 'http://' + d + '.tumblr.com'; }
			};
			return services[serviceName](data);
		}

		for(var i = 0; i < supportedServices.length; i++) {
			if(userData[supportedServices[i]]) {
				var serviceUrl = _buildServiceUrl(supportedServices[i]);
				userServices.push({'name' : supportedServices[i], 'url' : serviceUrl});
			}
		}
		return userServices;
	}

	this.dropProfile = function(id) {
		var dp = Dsq.$('dsq-drop-profile-' + id);

		// IE6 needs JS to display/hide. All other browsers use CSS.
		if(dp) {
			if(Dsq.Utils.ie6) dp.style.display = (dp.style.display == 'inline') ? 'none' : 'inline';
			return false;
		} else {
			dp = document.createElement('ul');
		}

		dp.id = 'dsq-drop-profile-' + id;
		dp.className = 'dsq-drop-profile';

		if(Dsq.Utils.ie6) { dp.style.display = 'inline'; }

		var container = Dsq.$('dsq-header-avatar-' + id);
		dp.innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.dropProfile(id);
		container.appendChild(dp);
	};

	this.dropProfileMore = function(el, id) {
		var hiddenItems = Dsq.$('dsq-drop-hidden-' + id);

		hiddenItems.style.display = 'inline';
		el.parentNode.style.display = 'none';
	};

	this._updateReplyLinks = function(el, id) {
		// Update "reply / cancel" links based on state.
		var displayDict = {};

		if(id) {
			if(this.stateReplyToggled[id]) {
				el.innerHTML = 'Cancel';
				displayDict['media'] = 'inline';
				displayDict['edit'] = 'none';
			} else {
				el.innerHTML = 'Reply';
				displayDict['media'] = 'none';
				displayDict['edit'] = 'inline';
			}
		}

		for(var key in displayDict) {
			if(displayDict.hasOwnProperty(key)) {
				var	linkEl = Dsq.$('dsq-' + key + '-el-' + id),
					spacer = Dsq.$('dsq-' + key + '-spacer-' + id);

				if(linkEl) {
					linkEl.style.display = displayDict[key];
					if(spacer) spacer.style.display = displayDict[key];
				}
			}
		}
	};

	this._updateMediaLinks = function(el, id) {
		// Update "use media / cancel" links based on state.
		var appendId = (id) ? ('-' + id) : '';
		var link = Dsq.$('dsq-media-link' + appendId);

		if(this.stateRecordLink[id]) {
			link.innerHTML = 'Cancel Media';
			link.onclick = function() { Dsq.Post.toggleMediaReply(link, id); return false; };
		} else {
			link.innerHTML = 'Use Media <small>&#9660;</small>';
			link.onclick = function() { Dsq.Post.showMenu(link, id, 'media'); return false; };
		}
	};

	this.toggleReply = function(el, id) {
		// Create reply IFrame
		if (window.disqus_use_postmessage) {
			if (!this.stateReplyToggled[id]) {
				Dsq.$('dsq-reply-' + id).style.display = 'block';
				Dsq.$('dsq-reply-bar-' + id).style.display = 'block';
				// Create IFrame if it doesn't exist.
				if (!Dsq.frames['reply_' + id]) {
					var _meta = Dsq.jsonData.posts[id];
					Dsq.frames['reply_' + id] = new Dsq.ReplyFrame(Dsq.$('dsq-reply-frame-' + id), id);
					Dsq.frames['reply_' + id].init();
					Dsq.frames['reply_' + id].setState(id, _meta.depth);
				}
			} else {
				Dsq.$('dsq-reply-' + id).style.display = 'none';
				Dsq.$('dsq-reply-bar-' + id).style.display = 'none';
			}
		} else {
			// DEPRECATED
			if(!this.stateReplyToggled[id]) {
				// Reply toolbar
				Dsq.$('dsq-reply-bar-' + id).style.display = 'block';
				Dsq.Iframes.showReplyIframeInContainerIfAllowed(Dsq.$('dsq-reply-' + id), id);
			} else {
				Dsq.$('dsq-reply-bar-' + id).style.display = 'none';
				Dsq.Iframes.hideAllInContainer(Dsq.$('dsq-reply-' + id));
				if(this.stateRecordLink[id]) {
					// HACK: Cancel media before canceling self.
					this.toggleMediaReply(Dsq.$('dsq-media-link-' + id), id);
				}
			}
		}

		this.stateReplyToggled[id] = !this.stateReplyToggled[id];
		this._updateReplyLinks(el, id);

		if(Dsq.Utils.ie) { Dsq.Utils.fixIframesIE('dsq-reply-' + id); }

		Dsq.Events.fire(Dsq.Events.REPLY_IFRAME_TOGGLED, {
			postId: id,
			opened: this.stateReplyToggled[id]
		});
	};

	this.toggleMediaReply = function(el, id, xtype) {
		id = id || 0;
		if(id) {
			var container = Dsq.$('dsq-reply-' + id);
		} else {
			var container = Dsq.$('dsq-post-add');
		}

		if(!this.stateRecordLink[id]) {
			Dsq.Iframes.showReplyIframeInContainer(container, id, {xtype:xtype}, 'dsq-post-video');
		} else {
			Dsq.Iframes.showReplyIframeInContainer(container, id);
		}
		this.stateRecordLink[id] = !this.stateRecordLink[id];
		this._updateMediaLinks(el, id);

		if(Dsq.Utils.ie) { Dsq.Utils.fixIframesIE(); }
	};

	this.edit = function(el, id) {
		Dsq.$('dsq-comment-message-' + id).innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.frameEdit(id);
		el.parentNode.style.display = 'none';
		if(Dsq.Utils.ie) { Dsq.Utils.fixIframesIE('dsq-comment-message-' + id); }
	};

    this.rate = function(el, id, vote) {
		if(Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated || Dsq.jsonData.forum.allow_anon_votes) {
			if(vote == 1) {
                Dsq.$('dsq-rate-cont-' + id).innerHTML = '<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/loading-small.gif">';
            }

            Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/vote.js'
                + '?post_id='    + id
                + '&vote='        + vote);

		} else {
			Dsq.Popup.login(Dsq.Strings.TO_RATE_PLEASE_LOG_IN);
		}
    };

	this.report = function(id, confirmed) {
		if(confirmed) {
			Dsq.Utils.postToUrl('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism/post_report/', {'post_id': id});
			Dsq.Popup.popModal('Thank you. This comment has been flagged for moderator attention.', 'Successfully flagged');
			Dsq.Utils.deleteNode(Dsq.$('dsq-post-report-' + id));
		} else {
			var title = Dsq.Strings.FLAG_INAPPROPRIATE_COMMENT;
			var message = Dsq.Strings.ARE_YOU_SURE_YOU_WOULD_LIKE_TO_REPORT_THIS_COMMENT_TO_A_MODERATOR + '? \
			<br /><br /> \
			<button onclick="Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true)"><strong>' + Dsq.Strings.NO + '</strong>, ' + Dsq.Strings.NEVER_MIND + '</button>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<button onclick="Dsq.Post.report(' + id + ', true);"><strong>' + Dsq.Strings.YES + '</strong>, ' + Dsq.Strings.FLAG_INAPPROPRIATE_COMMENT + '</button><br /><br />'
			+ Dsq.Strings.THIS_WILL_FLAG_COMMENTS_FOR_MODERATORS_TO_TAKE_ACTION + '. \
			';

			Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, title, id);
		}
	};



	this.showAlert = function(id, msg) {
		var msgEl = Dsq.$('dsq-comment-message-' + id);
		var alert = '<div class="dsq-comment-alert">' + msg + '</div>';

		msgEl.innerHTML = alert + msgEl.innerHTML;
	};

};
// Dsq.Post


/**
 * Dsq.Thread
 */
Dsq.Thread = new function() {
	this.fc = null;
	this.ff = null;
	this.ac = null;

	
	this.adminIsOn = false;

	
	
	

	this.hlComment = null;
	this.hlCommentClass = null;

	this.getNextComment = function(el) {
		var start_id = el.id;
		while(el = el.nextSibling) {
			if(el.id && el.id.indexOf('dsq-comment-') != -1 && el.id != start_id) {
				return el;
			}
		}
		return null;
	};

	this.getActiveCommentId = function() {
		if (document.URL.indexOf('#comment-') >= 0) {
			var anchor = document.URL.slice(document.URL.indexOf('#') + 1);
			return anchor.replace('comment-', '');
		}
		return null;
	};

	this.highlightAnchor = function() {
		var i = this.getActiveCommentId();
		if (i == null) return false;
		var id = 'dsq-comment-' + i;
		var hash = window.location.hash;

		// Toggle the hash incase the comment isn't available when the page loads
		// for WebKit-based browsers.
		if (Dsq.Utils.webkit) {
			window.location.hash = '';
			window.location.hash = hash;
		}

		this.hlComment = Dsq.$(id);
		// Adding this conditional guard pending #289
		if (!this.hlComment) {
			return;
		}
		this.hlCommentClass = this.hlComment.className;
		this.hlComment.className += ' dsq-hl-anchor';

		setTimeout("Dsq.Thread.highlightClear()", 3000);
	};

	this.highlightClear = function() {
		if (!this.hlComment) {
			return;
		}
		this.hlComment.className = this.hlCommentClass;
	};

	this.login = function(toggle) {
		// toggle id is #dsq-reply-login-[id]
		var postId;
		if(toggle.id.indexOf('dsq-reply-login') != -1) {
			postId = toggle.id.slice(16);
			var container = Dsq.$('dsq-reply-' + postId);
		} else {
			var container = Dsq.$('dsq-post-add');
		}

		if(toggle) {
			if(toggle.className == 'dsq-login-active') {
				Dsq.Iframes.showReplyIframeInContainerIfAllowed(container, postId);
				toggle.className = '';
			} else {
				Dsq.Iframes.showLoginIframeInContainer(container, postId);
				toggle.className = 'dsq-login-active';
			}
		} else {
			Dsq.Iframes.showLoginIframeInContainer(container, postId);
		}

		if(Dsq.Utils.ie) { Dsq.Utils.fixIframesIE(); }
	};


	this.paginate = function(page, el_clicked, per_page) {
		// Use extra_params to pass any override parameters that we need to persist.
		var extra_params = '';

		// "Per page" can either be overriden by providing it as an argument
		// (per-call) or setting the disqus_per_page override variable (global).
		if(typeof per_page == 'undefined') {
			per_page = null;
		}
		if(typeof disqus_per_page != 'undefined' && per_page === null) {
			per_page = disqus_per_page;
		}

		if(typeof disqus_sort != 'undefined') {
			extra_params += '&sort=' + disqus_sort;
		}
		if(per_page !== null) {
			extra_params += '&per_page=' + per_page;
		}

		Dsq.$('dsq-pagination').innerHTML += '<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/loading-small.gif">';
		
		if(el_clicked) {
			el_clicked.style.display = 'none';
		}
		
		Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/thread.js'
			+ '?slug='	+ 'my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism'
			+ '&p='		+ page
			+ extra_params);
	};

	this.sortBy = function(sort) {
		var disqus_script = document.createElement('script');
		var disqus_date = new Date();

		if (location.hash != '') {
			location.hash = '#disqus_thread';
		}

		if(typeof(disqus_url) == 'undefined') {
			disqus_url = disqus_href;
		}
		disqus_script.type = 'text/javascript';
		disqus_script.src = 'http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/thread.js'
			+ '?slug='	+ 'my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism'
			+ '&sort='	+ sort
			+ '&title='
			+ '&'		+ disqus_date.getTime();

		Dsq.$('dsq-comments').innerHTML = '<img src="http://media.disqus.com/images/loading.gif">';
		Dsq.container.appendChild(disqus_script);
	};

	this.subscribe = function(status, email) {
		// `status` is an int -- 1 to subscribe, 0 to unsubscribe
		if(Dsq.jsonData.request.is_authenticated || email) {
			// If authenticated user OR anonymous email provided

			if(email) {
				Dsq.Popup._closePopup(null, true);
			}

			Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/subscribe.js'
				+'?status=' 	+ status
				+ '&slug='		+ 'my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism'
				+ '&email=' 	+ encodeURIComponent(email));

		} else if(!email) {
			// If anonymous user and no email has been provided yet, prompt for email

			var title = 'Subscribe to this comment thread';
			var message = ' \
				New comments will be sent directly to your email inbox! \
				<div class="dsq-subscribe-submit"> \
					<p><strong>Enter your email address below.</strong></p> \
					<input type="text" id="dsq-subscribe-email"> \
					<button onclick="Dsq.Thread.subscribe(1, Dsq.$(\'dsq-subscribe-email\').value)">Subscribe</button> \
				</div> \
			';

			Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, title);
		}
	};

	this.showSettings = function() {
		if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator) {
			return;
		}

		/* The form has to be re-designed when more options will come out. */
		var html = 'Automatically close comments after <input size="3" id="dsq-thread-days-alive" value="' + Dsq.jsonData.thread.days_alive + '" type="text" /> days. Existing comments will still be displayed.<br /><br />(Using 0 days will disable this feature)<br /><br />'
								 + '<button onclick="Dsq.Thread.updateDaysAlive();" class="dsq-button-small"><span>Save</span></button>'
								 + '<span id="dsq-thread-settings-status" class="dsq-options-status"></span>';
		Dsq.Popup.popModal(html, 'Settings');
	};

	this.updateDaysAlive = function() {
		var days = Dsq.$('dsq-thread-days-alive').value;
		var status = Dsq.$('dsq-thread-settings-status');
		Dsq.Utils.postToUrl('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/update_days_alive.js', {days:days,thread:Dsq.jsonData.thread.id});
		status.innerHTML = 'Saved!';
		window.setTimeout(function() { status.innerHTML = ''; }, 1000);
	};
};
// Dsq.Thread

Dsq.Events = function() {
	var obj = {};

	// Private
	var handlers = {};
	var getHandlers = function(event) {
		if (handlers[event] === undefined) {
			handlers[event] = [];
		}
		return handlers[event];
	};

	// Public
	// Value keys : postId, node, xtype
	obj.REPLY_IFRAME_CREATED = 1;
	// Value keys : postId, opened
	obj.REPLY_IFRAME_TOGGLED = 2;
	obj.fire = function(event, opt_value) {
		if (!event) {
			throw new Error('Unknown event');
		}
		var value = opt_value || {};
		for (var i=0; i<getHandlers(event).length; i++) {
			getHandlers(event)[i](value);
		}
	};
	obj.addHandler = function(event, callback) {
		getHandlers(event).push(callback);
	};

	return obj;
}();

/**
 * Dsq.Realtime
 */
Dsq.Realtime = new function() {
	var initialized = false;
	var interval = null;
	var last_checked = Dsq.jsonData.request.timestamp;
	var new_posts = [];
	var ongoing_request = false;
	var prev_script = null;

	function updateNewPostCount() {
		Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-alert').style.display = new_posts.length ? 'block' : 'none';

		Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-queued').innerHTML = new_posts.length
		+ ' new '
		+ Dsq.Utils.pluralize(new_posts.length, 'comment', 'comments')
		+ Dsq.Utils.pluralize(new_posts.length, ' was', ' were')
		+ ' just posted.';

		Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-show').innerHTML = '(' + Dsq.Strings.SHOW + ')';
	}

	function insertNewPosts() {
		var post_id = null;
		var after_id = Dsq.$('dsq-sort-select').value === 'oldest' ? -1 : null;

		for (var i=0; i<new_posts.length; i++) {
			post_id = new_posts[i];
			Dsq.Post.insert(after_id, post_id, Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id].message);
			Dsq.Post.incrementPostCount();
			Dsq.Post.outlineComment(post_id);
		}
		new_posts = [];
	}

	this.enableInterval = function() {
		interval = setInterval(Dsq.Realtime.check, Dsq.jsonData.context.realtime_speed);
		Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-status').innerHTML = Dsq.Strings.ENABLED;
		Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-toggle').innerHTML = '(' + Dsq.Strings.PAUSE + ')';
	}

	this.disableInterval = function() {
		if (interval) {
			clearInterval(interval);
			interval = null;
		}
		Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-status').innerHTML = Dsq.Strings.PAUSED;
		Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-toggle').innerHTML = '(' + Dsq.Strings.RESUME + ')';
	}

	this.toggleInterval = function() {
		if (!interval) {
			Dsq.Realtime.enableInterval();
		} else {
			Dsq.Realtime.disableInterval();
		}
		return false;
	}

	this.initialize = function() {
		if (!initialized) {
			initialized = true;
			Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-toggle').onclick = this.toggleInterval;
			if (!Dsq.jsonData.forum.streaming_realtime) {
				Dsq.$('dsq-realtime-show').onclick = this.show;
				updateNewPostCount();
			}
			if (Dsq.jsonData.thread.realtime_paused) {
				Dsq.Realtime.disableInterval();
			} else {
				Dsq.Realtime.enableInterval();
			}
		}
	}

	this.show = function() {
		insertNewPosts();
		updateNewPostCount();
		return false;
	}

	this.check = function() {
		if (!ongoing_request && Dsq.jsonData.realtime_enabled) {
			if (prev_script) {
				prev_script.parentNode.removeChild(prev_script);
			}
			ongoing_request = true;
			prev_script = Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/forums/7132144/realtime.js?timestamp=' + last_checked);
		}
	};

	this.update = function(timestamp, posts, users) {
		ongoing_request = false;
		last_checked = timestamp;

		if (users) {
			for (var user_id in users) {
				if (users.hasOwnProperty(user_id)) {
					if (!Dsq.jsonData.users[user_id]) {
						Dsq.jsonData.users[user_id] = users[user_id];
					}
				}
			}
		}

		if (posts) {
			for (var post_id in posts) {
				if (posts.hasOwnProperty(post_id)) {
					if (!Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id]) {
						Dsq.jsonData.posts[post_id] = posts[post_id];
						new_posts.push(post_id);
					}
				}
			}

			if (Dsq.jsonData.forum.streaming_realtime) {
				insertNewPosts();
			} else {
				updateNewPostCount();
			}
		}
	};

}();

// DEPRECATED
Dsq.Iframes = function() {
	// Different style of object from the above. Hoping to switch to this for some reason.
	var obj = {};

	// Private
	var showIframeInContainer = function(container, id, markup) {
		// Look through container for iframes, hiding them, except show one that matches id
		// If none of them matched id, create a new iframe using markup and insert it.
		// Returns the iframe node if and only if it was newly created.
		var found = false;
		for (var i=0; i<container.childNodes.length; i++) {
			var child = container.childNodes[i];
			if (child.nodeName == 'IFRAME') {
				if (child.id == id) {
					child.style.display = 'block';
					found = true;
				} else {
					child.style.display = 'none';
				}
			}
		}
		if (found) {
			return;
		}
		// The iframe wasn't found, so construct it and add it to the container.
		// Don't use innerHTML because it might reload iframes
		var div = document.createElement('div');
		div.innerHTML = markup;
		var iframe = div.childNodes[0];
		div.removeChild(iframe);
		container.appendChild(iframe);
		return iframe;
	};

	// Public
	obj.makeReplyIframeId = function(opt_postId, opt_xtype) {
		var id = 'dsq-post-add-iframe';
		if (opt_xtype) {
			id += '-' + opt_xtype;
		}
		if (opt_postId) {
			id += '-' + opt_postId;
		}
		return id;
	};
	obj.makeLoginIframeId = function(opt_postId) {
		if (!opt_postId) {
			return 'dsq-login-iframe';
		}
		return 'dsq-login-iframe-' + opt_postId;
	};
	obj.makeReplyIframeName = function(opt_postId, opt_xtype) {
		var name = 'dsq-reply-frame';
		if (opt_xtype) {
			name += '-' + opt_xtype;
		}
		if (opt_postId) {
			name += '-' + opt_postId;
		}
		return name;
	};
	obj.showReplyIframeInContainer = function(container, opt_postId, opt_extraParams, opt_className) {
		// Construct the id so we can check if it's already present.
		// Hide any other iframes we find, and show this one if it's found.
		var params = opt_extraParams || {};
		// use xtype in the id and name so we can distinguish media replies from text replies:
		var id = Dsq.Iframes.makeReplyIframeId(opt_postId, params.xtype);
		var name = Dsq.Iframes.makeReplyIframeName(opt_postId, params.xtype);
		var attributes = {
			'id': id,
			'name': name,
			'class': opt_className || 'dsq-post-reply'
			};
		var markup = Dsq.Templates.frameReply(opt_postId, opt_extraParams, attributes);
		var iframe = showIframeInContainer(container, id, markup);
		// It was newly created
		if (iframe) {
			Dsq.Events.fire(Dsq.Events.REPLY_IFRAME_CREATED, {
				postId: opt_postId,
				node: iframe,
				xtype: params.xtype
			});
		}
	};
	obj.showLoginIframeInContainer = function(container, opt_postId) {
		var id = Dsq.Iframes.makeLoginIframeId(opt_postId);
		var markup = Dsq.Templates.frameLogin({id: id});
		showIframeInContainer(container, id, markup);
	};
	obj.showReplyIframeInContainerIfAllowed = function(container, opt_postId) {
		if (Dsq.jsonData.context.show_reply) {
			obj.showReplyIframeInContainer(container, opt_postId);
		} else {
			obj.hideAllInContainer(container);
		}
	};
	obj.hideAllInContainer = function(container) {
		for (var i=0; i<container.childNodes.length; i++) {
			var child = container.childNodes[i];
			if (child.nodeName == 'IFRAME') {
				child.style.display = 'none';
			}
		}
	};

	return obj;
}();

Dsq.Twitter = new function() {
	var that = this;

	this.startTwitterConnect = function() {
		var popupParams = 'location=0,status=0,width=800,height=400';
		that._twitterWindow = window.open(Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/_ax/twitter/begin/', 'twitterWindow', popupParams);
		that._twitterInterval = window.setInterval(that.completeTwitterConnect, 1000);
	};

	this.completeTwitterConnect = function() {
		if (that._twitterWindow.closed) {
			window.clearInterval(that._twitterInterval);
			window.location.reload();
		}
	};
};

Dsq.Yahoo = new function() {
	var that = this;

	this.startYahooConnect = function() {
		var popupParams = 'location=0,status=0,width=800,height=400';
		that._yahooWindow = window.open(Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/_ax/yahoo/begin/', 'yahooWindow', popupParams);
		that._yahooInterval = window.setInterval(that.completeYahooConnect, 1000);
	};

	this.completeYahooConnect = function() {
		if (that._yahooWindow.closed) {
			window.clearInterval(that._yahooInterval);
			window.location.reload();
		}
	};
};

Dsq.OpenID = new function() {
	var that = this;

	this.requestURL = function() {
		var message = '<table class="dsq-openid-form"><tr><td style="vertical-align:top;" rowspan="2"><img src="' + Dsq.jsonData.settings.media_url + '/images/openid-icon-100x100.png" /></td>';
		message += '<td><label for="dsq-openid-url">OpenID URL:</label></td><td><input type="text" id="dsq-openid-url" /></td></tr>';
		message += '<tr><td><label for="dsq-openid-username">Display name:</label></td><td><input type="text" id="dsq-openid-username" /></td></tr>';
		message += '<tr><td class="dsq-openid-submit" colspan="3"><input type="button" value="Sign in" onclick="Dsq.OpenID.startConnect();" /></td></tr>';
		message += "</table>";

		Dsq.Popup.popModal(message, 'Sign in using OpenID');
	};

	this.startConnect = function() {
		var isblank = function(str) {
			return /^\s*$/.test(str);
		};

		var openid_url = Dsq.$('dsq-openid-url').value;
		var username = Dsq.$('dsq-openid-username').value;

		if (isblank(openid_url)) {
			return;
		}

		var popupParams = 'location=0,status=0,width=800,height=500';
		var url = Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/_ax/openid/begin/' + '?url=' + encodeURIComponent(openid_url) + '&username=' + encodeURIComponent(username);
		that._openidWindow = window.open(url, 'openidWindow', popupParams);
		that._openidInterval = window.setInterval(that.completeConnect, 1000);
	};

	this.completeConnect = function() {
		if (that._openidWindow.closed) {
			window.clearInterval(that._openidInterval);
			window.location.reload();
		}
	};
};

Dsq.Reaction = new function() {
	var that = this;

	this.hide = function(id) {
		Dsq.Utils.execScript('http://disqus.com/forums/jackandjillpolitics/hidereaction.js?' + 'reaction_id=' + id);
	};

	this.reportMissingReactions = function() {
		if (!Dsq.jsonData.request.is_moderator || !Dsq.jsonData.forum.reactions_enabled) {
			return;
		}

		if (Dsq.jsonData.thread.queued) {
			Dsq.Popup.popModal('Your report has been received. The system will automatically search for new reactions; if any are found, they will be displayed on this comment thread.<br/><br/>Thank&nbsp;you.',
												 'Reported missing reactions');
			return;
		}

		Dsq.Utils.execScript(Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + '/forums/jackandjillpolitics/queueurl.js');
	};
};

Dsq.CNN = function() {
	var obj = {};

	obj.authenticate = function() {
		var url = Dsq.jsonData.settings.disqus_url + "/saml/cnn/try/";
		Dsq.Utils.postToUrl(url, {'target': document.location}, true);
	};

	return obj;
}();


if(Dsq.Utils.ie6) {
	(function() {
		DSQ_HEADER_AVATAR_RE = /<div class="dsq-header-avatar"(.*?)>/gim;
		Dsq.Templates.registerFilter('postPrependHeader', function(html, post_id) {
			// Add "onmouseout" for dsq-header-avatar for dropProfile
			// functionality since IE6 cannot use :hover.
			function _headerAvatarReplace(content, inner, _unused, html) {
				return '<div class="dsq-header-avatar" '
					+ inner
					+ ' onmouseout="Dsq.Post.dropProfile(' + post_id + ')">';
			}
			html = html.replace(DSQ_HEADER_AVATAR_RE, _headerAvatarReplace);
			return html;
		});
	})();
}





	// TODO: Move Seesmic code outside of the main script.  Don't let this script clobber the global namespace.
	if(typeof seesmic == 'undefined') { var seesmic = {}; }
	seesmic.widget = new function () {
		this.callback = function (data) {
			playerVersion = data.disqusplayer;
		};
	};

	
	var scriptEl = document.createElement('script');
	scriptEl.setAttribute('type', 'text/javascript');
	scriptEl.setAttribute('src', 'http://seesmic.com/version.js?callback=seesmic.widget.callback');
	document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(scriptEl);

	
	var scriptEl = document.createElement('script');
	scriptEl.setAttribute('type', 'text/javascript');
	scriptEl.setAttribute('src', 'http://media.disqus.com/javascript/library/swfobject.js');
	document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(scriptEl);

	function see_play_video(_videoUri, _add) {
		var swf = !!playerVersion ? playerVersion : 'http://seesmic.com/embeds/StandalonePlayer.swf';

		flashcontentDiv = Dsq.$(_videoUri + '_content');
		previewDiv = Dsq.$('dsq-seesmic-' + _videoUri + '_preview');
		hideDiv = Dsq.$('dsq-seesmic-' + _videoUri + '_hide');
		showDiv = Dsq.$('dsq-seesmic-' + _videoUri + '_show');
		if(_add) {
			// push flash widget
			var so = new SWFObject(swf, 'sotester', '300', '270', '9', '#000000');
			so.addVariable('video', _videoUri);
			so.addParam('allowFullScreen', 'true');
			so.addParam('allowScriptAccess','always');
			so.useExpressInstall('swfobject/expressinstall.swf');
			so.write(_videoUri + '_content');

			previewDiv.style.display = 'none';
			hideDiv.style.display = 'block';
			showDiv.style.display = 'none';
		}
		else {
			flashcontentDiv.innerHTML = '';
			previewDiv.style.display = 'block';
			hideDiv.style.display = 'none';
			showDiv.style.display = 'block';
		}
	};





(function() {
	//
	// Load theme.  This overrides the base templates with template functions
	// from the respective themes.
	//
	if (Dsq.jsonData.integration.theme == 4) {
		var theme = 'narcissus';
		// HACK: Set variable on window to use post message.
		window.disqus_use_postmessage = true;

		
		for(var prop in Dsq.Themes[theme]) {
			if(Dsq.Themes[theme] && Dsq.Themes[theme].hasOwnProperty(prop)) {
				Dsq.Templates[prop] = Dsq.Themes[theme][prop];
			}
		}
		
		for(var prop in Dsq.Post) {
			if(Dsq.Themes[theme] && Dsq.Themes[theme].hasOwnProperty(prop)) {
				Dsq.Post[prop] = Dsq.Themes[theme][prop];
			}
		}
	}

	//
	// Register templates.  This must be done after all themes are loaded.
	//
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('authPost', Dsq.Templates.authPost);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('header', Dsq.Templates.header);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('footer', Dsq.Templates.footer);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('trackbacks', Dsq.Templates.trackbacks);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('reactions', Dsq.Templates.reactions);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('prependPost', Dsq.Templates.prependPost);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('appendPost', Dsq.Templates.appendPost);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('postPrependHeader', Dsq.Templates.postPrependHeader);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('postAppendHeader', Dsq.Templates.postAppendHeader);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('preBody', Dsq.Templates.preBody);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('postBody', Dsq.Templates.postBody);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('postFooter', Dsq.Templates.postFooter);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('_popupGeneric', Dsq.Templates._popupGeneric);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('voted', Dsq.Templates.voted);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('popupProfile', Dsq.Templates.popupProfile);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('postBox', Dsq.Templates.postBox);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('pagination', Dsq.Templates.pagination);
	Dsq.Templates.registerTemplate('postComment_onSuccess', Dsq.Templates.postComment_onSuccess);

})();

Dsq.container.className = "clearfix";
Dsq.container.innerHTML = ' \
<ul id="dsq-comments">\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3842598">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3842598" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3842598" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3842598">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3842598" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3842598" class="dsq-comment-message">Until someone can articulate why people who want to marry is the same as people just wanting to survive,I think this whole debate is a farce.Gay is a choice.Some frauds in the media are now trying to say that people are born with this.These are quack scientist and doctors putting this out because they are bought off by the gay movement.I think it is so disrespectful for the gays to not only compare their cause to our struggle,but to assume we would compromise our faith,values and beliefs for them if they use the so called Civil Rights buzzword.They are misinformed.The so called Civil rights movement was debated on relevance to the Black community outside the South and still is debated in our community.So to think they could just use the term and we would just shuffle our feet and go along with it was crazy.They did not even bother to ask us for their support.They just intimidate key people in the community into supporting them.Beware the GAY MOVEMENT IS A STRONG ARM MILITANT RACIST MOVEMENT THAT ONLY CARES ABOUT ITSELF NOT SOCIETY DEFINITELY NOT BLACK PEOPLE</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3842986">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3842986" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3842986" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3842986">anonymous</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3842986" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3842986" class="dsq-comment-message">Tell  that to Bayard Rustin, one of King\'s senior advisers and one of the primary minds behind the March on Washington, who was sent to the back of the bus when it was discovered he was queer. Or to Alvin Ailey, or Essex Hemphill, or Keith Haring, or Marlon Riggs, or Whitney Houston, or any of the other black queer folks who have given so much, yet been persecuted for their queerness, or died from HIV/AIDS (because no one wanted to put money into education or treatment to save "our kind"), or self destructed in front of our eyes. <br><br>I have some bad news for you and some of the other bigots I\'ve been been reading on this thread and other Prop 8 threads on Jack and Jill who keep talking about "they" and "those people." Lots and lots and lots of black people self-identify as gay and/or have same-sex sex: being gay is not a white condition nor a white disease. And being able to make, support, and keep family has everything to do with survival. How can anyone look at the damage done to black people during the days or slavery, and even now, when there\'s so little respect for making it possible for families to stay together.<br><br>What on earth is the benefit to anyone of my not being able to visit my wife in the hospital, or make decisions on her behalf? Or pick my child up from school (because I\'m not the "real," i.e., biological) parent? <br><br>We\'re talking about love here. Love that hurts no one, unless you want to make that crazy argument that somehow your marriage became less loving or valuable because of mine. And what I\'m seeing is sheer hatred and meanness. You don\'t like gay marriage? Don\'t marry me. But shame on you for pissing on my struggle or trying to make my life harder.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844301">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844301" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844301" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3844301" href="http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bigassbelle</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844301" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844301" class="dsq-comment-message">exactly. thank you anonymous . . .</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3850837">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3850837" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3850837" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3850837">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3850837" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3850837" class="dsq-comment-message">I could be wrong...but deep down, I don\'t think Obama doesn\'t give a damn if gays MARRY.    I think he chose his position because it wouldn\'t activate the anti-gay movement.    In that respect, it\'s smart strategy.    The question for the movement, is do you want the rights, or do you want the angst?     Obama seems to have an angst free strategy....<br><br>However, with the demonstrations and anger that\'s out there now,  it will have the anti-gay movement primed for a fight....like disturbing a wasps nest.   You can be sure when Obama makes his move, they\'ll fight him every step of the way.....Be ready.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851352">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851352" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851352" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851352" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851352" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851352" class="dsq-comment-message">I suspect you are right on all accounts.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3852160">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3852160" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3852160" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3852160">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3852160" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3852160" class="dsq-comment-message">You know, Craig...I think we were all worried America couldn\'t rise above it\'s fears to elect a black man.    After the MSM terrorized us with stories about the Bradley effect....I think we all settled in to watch the results with that doubt in our minds.    Then he won.   I think in that moment of grace...we changed.   Or, I would like to think that we did.  <br><br>I would like to think that maybe those of us who oppose gay marriage - if the prop 8 vote had occurred on Nov 5th - in that moment of grace, would have said <i>maybe the next person in this booth will vote "yes"..but not me, not on this magical day</i><br><br>I wonder if our hearts were softer on Nov 5 than on the 4th....  I would like to think they were.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3852196">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3852196" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3852196" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3852196" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3852196" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3852196" class="dsq-comment-message">Yes yes yes.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851456">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851456" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851456" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3851456">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851456" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851456" class="dsq-comment-message"><i>The question for the movement, is do you want the rights, or do you want the angst? Obama seems to have an angst free strategy....&lt;?i&gt;<br><br><b>Precisely</b><br><br>(and you know what, I wonder if the gay rights movement will prefer to choose the angst -- people seem real attached to that from what I am seeing.)</i></div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843011">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843011" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843011" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3843011" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843011" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843011" class="dsq-comment-message">I\'m not a scientist or a quack.<br><br>I did not choose to be who I am.<br><br>I was who I am at birth and have been all of my life.<br><br>I know this about myself. You, clearly, don\'t have a clue about who I am.<br><br>I am Black. I am Gay. I am Orphan Adopted. <br><br>Being Orphan Adopted has probably informed more of my experience in life than being Black or Gay or being Black and Gay has.<br><br>I have faith. I have values. I have beliefs.<br><br>I have no idea what you\'re talking about.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843423">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843423" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843423" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3843423" href="http://www.seesaw.typepad.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Liza Diamond</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843423" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843423" class="dsq-comment-message">Craig - love ya. And I guess it goes to show that there are all different ways gay people feel about their origins. I definately chose to be queer. I remember the moment. It just made sense on a whole lot of levels. I was twenty and just didn\'t want to live the "normal" life I was raised for. Being queer in the seventies meant being radical, political, part of a community of activists, breaking with patriarchal conditioning, spending a lot of time figuring out theory and strategies, learning and caring about queer history, and frankly, making history. It was so much fun. And there were so many smart  women to go out with.<br><br>Yeah, it was a choice for me. Guys were ok, I liked them as boyfriends, but the whole gestalt of being queer was irrisistible. I know people find that hard to believe nowadays, but it\'s my truth. It was exciting. Good times, good times.<br><br>I never wanted to get married. I still don\'t. I just don\'t want to have my financial and legal rights accorded to me (or not) because of my marital status. I\'m sure my heterosexual and unmarried friends feel the same.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844192">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844192" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844192" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3844192" href="http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bigassbelle</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844192" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844192" class="dsq-comment-message">"Gay is a choice" you pronounce with great authority. And you know that how? Your proof is what? You must not actually know any gays. i think you\'ve got one of those ID 10 T errors going on with your thinking . . .<br><br>perhaps Civil Rights Movement is considered the fight for black equality in the middle of the last century, but that is not / was not the only effort for civil rights in this country. how\'d we end up with this fight over who\'s the biggest victim? it\'s just crazy. wrong is wrong. it doesn\'t take away from the black civil rights movement to try to win civil rights for gays.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3850775">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3850775" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3850775" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3850775">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3850775" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3850775" class="dsq-comment-message">Those "quack" scientists are the same ones who acknowledge the genetic problems with siblings procreating.    If you accept their science in that respect, why do you reject it in the case of homosexuality?<br><blockquote><i>Beware the GAY MOVEMENT IS A STRONG ARM MILITANT RACIST MOVEMENT THAT ONLY CARES ABOUT ITSELF NOT SOCIETY DEFINITELY NOT BLACK PEOPLE</i></blockquote><br>There are black gays.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3807737">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3807737" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3807737" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3807737">T.</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3807737" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3807737" class="dsq-comment-message">"Strategy, education and outreach is the path to success." I couldn\'t agree with you more.<br><br>T.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3807743">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3807743" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3807743" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3807743">oh.</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3807743" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3807743" class="dsq-comment-message">Blogger "That Girl Has Issues" has a great post about sloppy analogies regarding race/slavery and the fight for gay marriage: <a href="http://thatgirlhasissues.blogspot.com/2008/11/prop-8-bad-assumptions.html" rel="nofollow">http://thatgirlhasissues.blogspot.com/2008/11/p...</a></div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845019">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845019" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845019" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3845019" href="http://www.seesaw.typepad.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Liza Diamond</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845019" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845019" class="dsq-comment-message">thanks for the link. That was a great post. I highly recommend it.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3809793">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3809793" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3809793" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3809793" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3809793" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3809793" class="dsq-comment-message">I remain perplexed by "marriage equality movement activists" who didn\'t jump on the Lawrence decision. <br><br>It\'s been 5 years.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3842541">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3842541" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3842541" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3842541" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3842541" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3842541" class="dsq-comment-message">Craig,<br><br>The only reason I can think of (and this is a pure guess) is the timing.  The Supreme Court has two fresh new conservatives in the Court.  My question is who, if anyone, is the swing vote in that Court?<br><br>It might be that activists are simply waiting for the best possible case to come their way.  Kinda like a "measure twice, cut once" approach to the gay marriage issue.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843226">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843226" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843226" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3843226" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843226" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843226" class="dsq-comment-message">But that would employ strategy. There has been so little, if any, of that, as you pointed out so well.<br><br>Within 6 months of Lawrence, the "activists" should\'ve had a gay marriage case before the Supreme Court.<br><br>But they didn\'t.<br><br>I think the answer goes to fear and shame, but I\'m hard-pressed to flesh that out right now.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3823198">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3823198" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3823198" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3823198" href="http://www.bi-bri.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Brian Esser</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3823198" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3823198" class="dsq-comment-message">The second I hear someone claim sexuality is a choice, anything else they have to say goes in one ear and out the other as they are uninformed and uneducated.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843872">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843872" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843872" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3843872">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843872" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843872" class="dsq-comment-message">It is a choice like stealing,fighting,lying,murdering,cheating.I am sure you think those people who engage in that bad behavior is born that way too.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3842937">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3842937" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3842937" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3842937">Oliver</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3842937" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3842937" class="dsq-comment-message">I\'m all for gay rights as I\'m for human rights and it makes no sense in 2008 to legalize hate and bigotry and via the ballot box makes even less sense. However, at the same time, I\'m totally turned off by the racism that many of them have shown, its as if they can be racists and no one seems to have the nerve to call them out on it.<br><br>The aren\'t going to win over any converts with that sort of attitude since racism is as bad as homophobia and many of the church folks are never going to forget the slurs.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843319">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843319" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843319" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3843319" href="http://www.seesaw.typepad.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Liza Diamond</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843319" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843319" class="dsq-comment-message">I do claim that sexuality is a choice. I also respect people who say they have always felt gay and I won\'t challenge their experience. My children are both vegetarians and have been for their entire lives. They can\'t stand the idea of eating meat. I happen to love a good barbeque (thanks again, T, for the invite) Do I think my children were born vegetarian? No. Is it genetic? No. Do I respect their right to chose? Certainly. Should they be discriminated against for being vegetarian? No. Should I face discrimination because I chose to be queer? No, it\'s a righteous choice.<br><br>I am neither uninformed nor uneducated. Au contraire, I\'ve been a lesbian activist and theorist for forty years. On the other hand,  I don\'t actually care if what I say goes in one of your ears and out the other.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845110">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845110" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845110" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3845110" href="http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bigassbelle</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845110" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845110" class="dsq-comment-message">aren\'t you assuming that everyone else is just like you? do you presume that every gay individual made a choice? i expect you\'re something of a rarity, though certainly not in the fact of a woman getting it on with another woman. that\'s no big deal. i expect you don\'t understand precisely because you are <i>not</i> gay, that you simply decided to pursue a lesbian lifestyle.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3850748">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3850748" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3850748" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3850748" href="http://www.seesaw.typepad.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Liza Diamond</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3850748" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3850748" class="dsq-comment-message">Me not gay??? Madame, you sully my reputation. Seriously, I assure you I am a Dyke. But maybe I don\'t understand your idea of the  difference between pursuing a lesbian "lifestyle" (for forty years I might add) and being gay?  <br><br>Some queers feel like they\'ve made a choice. Some don\'t. In my experience,  friends and acquaintances don\'t discuss it that often because it doesn\'t matter.  Coming out stories, on the other hand, are always a party favorite.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3850931">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3850931" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3850931" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3850931" href="http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bigassbelle</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3850931" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3850931" class="dsq-comment-message">you\'re right. it only matters when folks are trying to use your "choice" as reason to deny you basic civil rights.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851255">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851255" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851255" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851255" href="http://www.seesaw.typepad.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Liza Diamond</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851255" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851255" class="dsq-comment-message">Which is so stupid I can\'t wrap my brain around it. Not you - the idea that I should be denied my rights because I made a righteous choice. Like denying me my civil rights because I\'d converted from Conservative to Reform Judaism. Or decided to root for the Red Sox rather than the Yankees. Or switched my major from history to literature. Or decided to be an accountant rather than a librarian. Or became a long distance runner rather than a sprinter.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3852030">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3852030" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3852030" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3852030" href="http://blog.evavegadiversity.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">evita</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3852030" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3852030" class="dsq-comment-message">I have only known people choose to acknowledge their feelings, or their willingness to live happily and true or in a lie and going through the motions of what others want of you.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3823899">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3823899" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3823899" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3823899">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3823899" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3823899" class="dsq-comment-message">B-Serious,<br>I agree with you that there is no strategy for this agenda. I also agree that it is highly emotional and that impedes cogent and rational discussion of the issue. Typically, it disintegrates when folks start \'labelling\' and \'demonizing\' individuals who present an opposing argument with the use of inflammatory terms being used to flame and attack the messenger vs. addressing the message.  Having said that  and read your post.  I have a few questions and a statement that goes to the heart of the strategy you are proposing.<br><br>First, how did you decide that this issue of same gender sex marriage was a \'civil right\' what was your basis for that conclusion.<br><br>Second, there is no scientific data that proves there is any genetic basis for  sexual behavior of any kind, nor for any behaviors whatsoever.  There is just no scientific basis for such assertions. All theories purporting to demonstrate a genetic basis/gaygene for \'homosexual\' behavior has been debunked.<br><br>When it comes to legal discrimination against conduct there is a significant body of law that does allow for such discrimination and it ranges from disorderly conduct to banning marriage between brothers and sisters. That you engage in a behavior privately also does not preclude society from making laws against that conduct, i.e. polygamy and/or domestic abuse.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3842736">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3842736" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3842736" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3842736" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3842736" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3842736" class="dsq-comment-message">whitrosebuddy,<br><br>To answer your question, I came to my conclusion, in part, because I view the U.S. Constitution as a living, breathing document.  Therefore, I view same-sex marriage as being within the spirit of the Due Process Clause to the 14th Amendment.  I see same-sex marriage as the logical extension of the very same fundamental rights of self-determination that are granted to heterosexual couples (i.e., marriage, education, child rearing, etc.)  Proof of an immutable trait is not necessary in my book (though, depending on the legal argument, it could very well be necessary for the Supreme Court).<br><br>Regarding your second point, I admit that this is a question of fact to be fought out in the courts.  Although I would say that, for the sake of argument, I think a case could be made for strict scrutiny even without proof of an immutable characteristic.  It would be tricky, but I think it would probably rely on drawing parallels between sexual orientation/preference and religion (people can and often do change their religion, yet religion is treated as a suspect classification).<br><br>As to your third point, legal discrimination against conduct still needs to serve a valid governmental objective/purpose.  The Constitution doesn\'t grant me the "right" to eat a grilled-cheese sandwich, but the state better have a valid governmental interest if they\'re going to take that "right" away from me.  Laws against incest, polygamy, domestic abuse, etc., have clear governmental interests in the general health and well-being of the citizenry.<br><br>To the best of my knowledge, the state need only a rational basis to discriminate against homosexual conduct.  This is a low standard that I think often lies at the mercy of the political whims of the court.  More conservative courts seem more willing to find a "rational basis" whereas more progressive courts do not.<br><br>These are some of the technical reasons behind my support of same-sex marriage.  I have other reasons as well that are based in my personal beliefs and understanding on this issue.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843007">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843007" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843007" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3843007">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843007" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843007" class="dsq-comment-message">B-Serious,<br><br>  As you are aware that, in fact, the US Constitution does not establish any civil right to marriage?. We know there is no fundamental Constitutional right to marriage because society has long banned marriage between brothers/sisters and parent/offspring, right?<br><br>Am I to understand then, . that your belief that  marriage is a civil right  is part of the due process clause is a belief?<br><br>Sexual orientation is a term based on the biologic theory that there is a gay gene and briefs along with scientific data have demonstrated that in fact there is no scientifically proven medical evidence to support the existence of a gay gene. As you previously noted, where then is the bisexual gene. The reality is we know that  human sexual behavior occurs on a spectrum with individuals preferring ..homo, hetero or bisexuality as suits their desires. I fail to see how this fits with religious parallels in that the US Constitution under the establishmentarian clause (I think that\'s the one) prohitis the government from establishing any laws that abridge a persons right to engage in any religious faith..which is often referred to as \'separate but equal\'<br><br>Such that civil unions,  would not create separate but equal instituition, but rather it would mean acknowledging that  marriage is a religious sacrament and  civil unions keep  government out of religion and keeps discrimination out of government.<br><br>The state does have a compelling interest when it comes to marriage as it is the cornerstone of the unit which raises children and prevents the state from having the financial burden of those children born in a marriage. The state recognized that the indivdiual was being asked to give up the individualistic pursuit of happiness when it came to marriage and it\'s finacial burden (primarily males at the timefooting the bills) such that the state offered incentives for men to marry and take on those financial burdens as that was in the interest of the state.<br><br>As the state is not criminalizing homosexual conduct the case needs to be made that it is a compelling interest of the state to provide the benefits of marriage to homosexuals.<br><br>The gay agenda has failed to make the casethat same sex marriage is of any benefit to society at large. Thus, the lack of legalized support for same sex marriage.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844037">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844037" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844037" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3844037" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844037" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844037" class="dsq-comment-message">whiterosebuddy,<br><br>I\'d say that the burden is on the state to demonstrate a rationale basis for said discrimination.<br><br>Which means answering the following question:  How does denying homosexuals the ability to marry improve the overall well being of society?<br><br>Again, the state is taking action, here.  It\'s their burden to show a rational basis.<br><br>As for your earlier comments, the U.S. Constitution is written in negative speech.  As such, there aren\'t a whole lot of positive rights to speak of.  There is no right to marriage, correct.  However, there\'s also no expressed right to privacy, either.  The courts obtained the right to privacy by assuming the logical application/intentions behind such Amendments as the 4th Amendment\'s right against illegal searches and seizures, as well as the 1st, 3rd, and 5th Amendments.<br><br>We got the right to privacy because the courts viewed the constitution as a living, breathing document rather than a strict set of rules.  The courts considered the spirit of these amendments to come to the rational conclusion that a right to privacy exists.  A similar approach can, and I think shouold, be taken regarding gay marriage and the spirit of the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment.<br><br>As for your reference to the establishment clause.  If I\'m correct, the establishment clause means that the government may not endorse a religion.  I think you might be referring to the 1st Amendment\'s freedom of religion/free exercise clause.  However, I think that there are practical compromises to satisfy both the freedom of religion clause and gay marriage.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844394">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844394" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844394" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3844394">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844394" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844394" class="dsq-comment-message">B serious,<br><br>I do not think the state has to answer how denying improves the society. Rather the petitioner for change must demonstrate that they provide benefits to society that warrant the state EXTENDING those said benefits onto such conduct.<br><br>The state is not taking action. The state is being petitioned to change. Ergo, the burden is on the petitioner.  But in the interest of discussion let\'s consider this question.<br><br>How does the state benefit from same gender marriage?  There is an avalanche of data that shows it is in the best interest of children to be raised with a mother and a father.  So, if we wanted to look at it from the negative question you posed, the state can show that same gender sex marriage to not enhance the benefit of children.  Children raised in single family heads of households dominate our prison, welfare and social service case loads. There is just reams of data showing the negative influence upon human potential who are raised fatherless or motherless.<br><br>Ergo, it is not in the interest of the state to sanction marriages knowing the potential for harm to children is far greater than the likelihood of positive outcomes.  The states interest  is in setting the bar for the best possible outcome.  There being no need to lower that standard.  Can other family units have positive outcomes...certainly..however the goal of society is to create terms for the maximium potential for the best not to settle for less than the best when extending the benefits the state does for encouraging marriages.<br><br>With regard to the \'living breathing\' document I can only respond that is in the eye of the judge, then, no?  I think then we can agree  that in terms of status quo, there is no constitutional right to marriage, then.. A fact, that should be clearly established when folks start talking about their \'civil rights\'.  They may be pursuing a legal argument for the basis of such rights but as it stands there is no such civil right.  <br><br>Also, if we are going to put the rights of the individual above the state, will we also grant brothers and sisters as well as parent/offspring the same \'right to privacy\' as you are contending?  On the basis that that the state has to show harm is being done before it can discriminate against  those individual pursuits ?<br><br>I think civil unions handles the thorny  separation of church and state issue.<br><br>But gays want to make that divisive as well by claiming it is a \'separte but equal\' discrimination.<br><br>How are you getting a right under the due process clause? I admit not being familiar with due process other than as the right to trial by your peers in a court of law rather than being lynched by a vigilante mob.  Soooo, just how are you getting from point A to point B with that \'due process\'?</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845185">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845185" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845185" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3845185" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845185" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845185" class="dsq-comment-message">The question is whether the law overreaches.  Thus, the burden falls upon the State to show that it does not.  As far as I know, there is no stated rationale for Prop 8 as it exists today.  The rationale could be one of many things, but it has not yet been stated.<br><br>as for the Due Process Clause:<br><br>Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment says:<br><br>"No State shall . . . deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. . . "<br><br>The Court relied on the Due Process Clause in <i>Lawrence v. Texas</i>:<br><br><i>"The present case (<i>Lawrence</i>) does not involve minors.  It does not involve persons who might be injured or coerced or who are situated in relationships where consent might not easily be refused.  It does not involve public conduct or prostitution.  It does not invovle whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.  The case does involve two adults who, with full and mutual consent from each other, engaged in sexual practices common to a homosexual lifestyle.  The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives.  <b>The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime.  Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.  \'It is a promise of the Constitution that there is a realm of personal liberty which the government may not enter.\'  The Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual."</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br> . . . The following practically begs for a gay marriage challenge:<br><br><i>"Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in <b>its manifold possibilities,</b> they might have been more specific.  They did not presume to have this insight.  <b>They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress.  As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom."</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br>The Court is at least inviting this discussion of gay marriage.  It at least acknowledges the right for gay relationships to exist.  <br><br>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships . . . then I see no reason why gay marriage (the logical progression of a relationship) should be treated any differently as a liberty protected by the Due Process Clause than heterosexual marriage.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845310">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845310" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845310" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3845310" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845310" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845310" class="dsq-comment-message"><i>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships </i><br><br>sorry . . . swap "heterosexual relationships" and "homosexual relationships" in that sentence.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851163">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851163" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851163" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3851163">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851163" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851163" class="dsq-comment-message">B-Serious, your knowledge as displayed over and over in this thread and the original post has made it worth it to me to wade through and past all the stuff in the discussion that just makes me want to throw up. <br><br>Thank you. I am learning. And I am grateful.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3855633">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3855633" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3855633" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3855633" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3855633" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3855633" class="dsq-comment-message">Michelle,<br><br>Thanks.  Glad to see it helps a little.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851392">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851392" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851392" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851392" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851392" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851392" class="dsq-comment-message">B-serious, you are putting the meat on all of the bones I\'ve thrown into this discussion over several threads.<br><br>I have been speaking from gut and from memory, so I didn\'t have the case law and the language to back up my remarks.<br><br>I was simply too tired (or too jaded) to do the work that you have done nor do I think I could have put it together as well as you have anyway.<br><br>Thank you for taking the ball and running with it.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3855623">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3855623" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3855623" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3855623" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3855623" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3855623" class="dsq-comment-message">Craig,<br><br>No problem.  Glad to help!</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3842952">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3842952" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3842952" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3842952">brklyngrl</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3842952" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3842952" class="dsq-comment-message">This is a smart post, and I agree with most of it. I like the strategic part so much I plan to distribute it widely. <br><br>So, because I really appreciate the thought you\'ve put into this, as well as your helpful strategic advice, I\'m going to try to answer your questions for gay people, even though I found them confusing. <br><br>1. That would totally be weird if people were both suggesting that being gay is biological and that one became gay after living straight for some extended period of time. And it would be natural to wonder if it could work the other way. But what people are actually saying, including the people who do this, is that they were LYING about being straight because of the incredible social pressure to do so. <br><br>2. I\'m not sure where you\'re getting your ideas about bisexuality being some sort of switching back and forth between being gay and being straight that magically undermines biological theories about sexuality. It\'s its OWN thing. I guess you could argue that people who are bisexual should be forced into straight relationships, but that seems a rather different issue entirely. <br><br>3. I\'m fairly certain that the phenomena you\'re referring to as \'covering\' is the exact same phenomena that the gay community refers to as \'being in the closet\'. That\'s nice that many Black people think it must be a privilege, but I assure you the lived experience of it is not that simple. Sure, it has its advantages, but there are severe downsides also. I can try to explain it if that\'s useful, but there are also at least 30 years worth of scholarship on the politics of being in the closet, so I don\'t think I\'ll be able to offer much in the way of novel insights. Maybe try pretending that you have a really big secret about yourself, and that if you told it you might lose your job, you would almost certainly lose at least some friends, and there was a real possibility that at least some members of your family (including your parents) wouldn\'t love you anymore. If you don\'t tell it, you can keep all that, but you have to give up any chance at a real romantic relationship, and you live knowing that it could all blow up at any moment. What lengths might you go to to pretend you didn\'t have to make that choice? How much of a privilege would it be to be faced with smaller and larger versions of that choice almost every day for the rest of your life?</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843877">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843877" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843877" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3843877" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843877" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843877" class="dsq-comment-message">brklyngrl,<br><br>Thanks for the feedback.  Your kinda preaching to the choir, here.  I have no problems with same-sex marriage.  I just question some of the arguments/legal tactics being used to get from point A to point B.<br><br>Those three examples are simply questions gay-rights advocates will likely face if they argue gay rights as an immutable characteristic.  I\'ve heard those answers before . . . I\'m just saying I don\'t think those answers are gonna cut it in front of a 5-4 conservative supreme court.  Something tells me they\'re gonna ask for the "gay gene," in which case things might go downhill from there.<br><br>A lot of it depends on how one shapes the question.  If you go down that path, you\'re probably going to have to answer the following:  whether one\'s sexuality is an inherent trait, or is sexuality a fluid concept (forget "choice," but consider fluidity)?  <br><br>I accept that people can be born gay, but I\'m not quite sure that\'s the rule for everybody.  I can see pretty solid arguments on both sides of the equation (meaning people whom, for whatever reason, either acknowledge or choose a different sexual preference -- straight to gay or gay to straight).<br><br>My thing is, why have that conversation if you can pursue the same objective by arguing gay marriage as a matter of privacy and self-determination?<br><br>Bisexuality implies some kind of choice.  If it\'s its "own thing," then it seems like what we\'re really saying is that "sexuality" in-and-of-itself is its "own thing" regardless of orientation.  This lends to the idea that sexuality is a fluid, yet PRIVATE concept.  In which case it might be best to pursue gay rights as a matter of privacy rather than immutable trait.<br><br>What I\'m getting at is this:  To say one is born gay is usually accompanied by arguments that people don\'t have a choice in their sexual preference.  I\'m fine with part one of that statement, but not sold on part two.<br><br>Which is why I\'d think it best to avoid the quicksand altogether and simply focus on gay rights as a matter of PRIVACY regardless of sexual orientation.<br><br>I\'m saying . . . who cares if homosexuality is a choice or not . . . that shouldn\'t matter because these same rights are covered as a matter of privacy.<br><br>It seems to come down to this:  Person A says that, despite living a heterosexual lifestyle, he eventually realized that he had been gay all along.  Gay rights activists say we should believe person A, but dismiss person B who says the opposite (that despite being gay his entire life, he eventually realized that he is straight).  Why?<br><br>Couldn\'t one argue that sexuality is, if anything, personal by nature?  Meaning, you don\'t really know who you love until you actually fall in love??<br><br>Again, I see other possible ways to obtain gay marriage without necessarily having to prove that people are born gay.  I actually think that\'s a trap gay-rights advocates keep falling into.  It shouldn\'t matter whether your born gay or not, the focus should be on the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of the proposed discrimination.<br><br>As for covering/in the closet, it would be benificial to convey the point that it\'s not a luxury.  Because I\'m sure some black folk wouldn\'t mind "covering" their race regardless of how much inner turmoil it caused them.  Like I said, this doesn\'t necessarily make gay rights more or less important.  But it does get in the way when some try to draw direct parallels between gay and black struggles.  "Covering" is an issue that is particular to the gay community and, therefore, needs to be discussed as such.  People can try to empathize, but they can\'t always be expected to sympathize. . . <br><br>But, like I said . . . sympathy should not be a prerequisite for equal rights.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844317">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844317" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844317" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3844317" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844317" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844317" class="dsq-comment-message">Well,"covering" and "passing" might not be all that dissimilar.... both for the perceived benefits to and the psychological drawbacks for the person living in secret.<br><br>As the 12 Step folks like to say: you\'re only as sick as your secrets.<br><br>But we agree on principle here.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851179">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851179" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851179" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851179" href="http://talesfromthe.net/jon" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">jon</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851179" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851179" class="dsq-comment-message">Kenji Yoshino\'s <a href="http://www.kenjiyoshino.com/covering_defined.htm" rel="nofollow">Covering</a> looks at this from an orientation and racial perspective (if I recall correctly, he\'s biracial), and in his view<br><br><i>Unlike most racial minorities, women, and individuals with disabilities, most gays have (in fact or in the imagination of others) a panoply of options for assimilation. These forms of assimilation include conversion, passing, and covering. The history of gay rights can be retold as a history of<br>resistance to these three kinds for assimilation.</i><br><br>Well worth reading.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851331">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851331" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851331" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851331" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851331" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851331" class="dsq-comment-message">I ought to know, since Kenji was in the a capella group I started in college, but I can\'t remember if his mother is Japanese. I think both of his parents are, if I recall correctly.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3855581">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3855581" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3855581" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3855581" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3855581" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3855581" class="dsq-comment-message">Thanks for the info.   <br><br>I remember discussing him during law school.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843056">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843056" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843056" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3843056">rikyrah</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843056" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843056" class="dsq-comment-message">Thanks B-Serious. <br><br>Love the post.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843330">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843330" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843330" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3843330">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843330" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843330" class="dsq-comment-message">B-Serious<br><br>One of the other challenges with this issue is that we have individuals who have chosen to claim an identity based on a conduct.  When you talk about immutable trait or birthright this too makes the issue exceedingly irrational. Sex is something an indivdiual does it is not something an individual is. People can choose to steal, liar, steal, murder, dance, sing, act etc.  All of those behaviors are what they do and it is their choice to do them, but none of those are who the individual is.<br><br>Such that language becomes a very real concern when addressing this issue as a matter of rights based on specific conduct.  <br><br>Society has every right to discriminate against behaviors and we do so not just with civil law (speeding) but also we can criminalized the conduct (drunk driving).<br><br>Furthermore, if any individual could prove that they had a genetic predisposition for alcoholism that would not preclude society from making laws against drunk driving. Society still has the right to discriminate against behaviors even if an individual has such a genetic predisposition.<br><br>Lastly, a genetic predisposition, is just that...it is not a foregone conclusion...in other words having the genetic trait for diabetes or alcoholism does not automatically mean that the individual will be a diabetic or alcholic.  That becomes a matter of of choice.<br><br>All of which is to say that the thorny discussion on conduct, immutable trait, makes the samesex marriage agenda even more contentious due to the unwillingness of individuals to acknowledge that sexual behavior is not an identity ..it is something the individual does and that they do choose to engage in.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844102">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844102" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844102" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3844102" href="http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bigassbelle</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844102" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844102" class="dsq-comment-message"><i>One of the other challenges with this issue is that we have individuals who have chosen to claim an identity based on a conduct.</i><br><br>You\'ve got it exactly backward. Without exception, every single gay/lesbian person I know ~ and there have been many throughout the years ~ knew they were gay long before they ever had a sexual experience. The identity preceded the conduct.<br><br>Maybe I\'m misunderstanding you . . .</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844627">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844627" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844627" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3844627">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844627" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844627" class="dsq-comment-message">Perhaps I am not expressing myself clearly.<br><br>There are numerous behaviors that folks engage in...but they do not claim those behaviors as their identity as if that is the sum total of who and what they are.  Folks just do not do that, because they recognize that is simply something they DO.  Even professional athletes don\'t claim their sport as their identity, nor do lawyers claim their profession as their identity..it is something that they DO not who they ARE.<br><br>No individual is the sum total of their sexual behavior.  What a person does sexually is not an identity. Prostitutes and whores are people...not just commercial sex workers. <br><br>The entire concept simply does not work for folks to go around claiming that as some immutable trait...behaviors/conduct is not an identity it is a conscious choice to engage in a specific act or set of actions.  <br><br>It is not an identity.  If we use the logic of behavior as some special right to privileges, then we would have rights for drunks, whores, prostitutes, plumbers, shipbuilders etc.  We do not grant rights based on behaviors.<br><br>There are no consitutional rights based on a set of behaviors.  Race is not a behavior.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845088">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845088" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845088" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3845088" href="http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bigassbelle</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845088" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845088" class="dsq-comment-message">You\'re tragically misinformed. <br><br>You\'re saying that a gay identity comes from a set of sexual behaviors?<br><br>That\'s crazy. Straight people around the world practice the same sexual behaviors lots of folks think of as gay. Are they gay?<br><br>Of course not. Being gay is entirely separately from behavior. Just as with straights, many gays never engage in any sexual behavior at all. <br><br>It\'s not a matter of gaining an identity through practice of certain behaviors. Are you serious??</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3850725">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3850725" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3850725" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3850725">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3850725" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3850725" class="dsq-comment-message">There are some problems here....<br><blockquote><i>There are numerous behaviors that folks engage in...but they do not claim those behaviors as their identity as if that is the sum total of who and what they are. Folks just do not do that, because they recognize that is simply something they DO.</i></blockquote><br>If you\'re reducing sex to simply a behaviour, rather than an identity....then how can you strongly identify as heterosexual and draw distinctions between yourself and homosexuals, and insist you deserve special considerations within the law based on your heterosexual behaviour?   Is your heterosexual behaviour the "sum total" of who you are?<br><br>If sexual partner is simply a choice, were you at your first sexual encounter presented with a choice between male and female - from which you chose the female?(assuming you\'re male).   Was there an exactly equal chance that you could have chosen the male?</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851122">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851122" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851122" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3851122">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851122" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851122" class="dsq-comment-message"><blockquote><i>If you\'re reducing sex to simply a behaviour, rather than an identity....then how can you strongly identify as heterosexual and draw distinctions between yourself and homosexuals, and insist you deserve special considerations within the law based on your heterosexual behaviour? Is your heterosexual behaviour the "sum total" of who you are?</i></blockquote><br><br>I am not following this discussion closely because quite frankly the heterosexism/homophobia on display here is starting to wear down my tolerance. So Truthseeker, please forgive me if I am off topic in this response.<br><br>But -- that statement/those questions from you seem to mesh with something my girlfriend and I talked about right before I turned on the computer.<br><br>I was saying that I am starting to get a strong sense that some of the anti-gay arguments out there have what I would consider to be an unhealthy obsession with sex -- that is, an unhealthy and misdirected obsession with what other people do with our private parts etc.<br><br>This isn\'t exact, but to try to describe it a little bit more ... the feeling I\'m getting about this unhealthy sex/genital-obsession kind of reminds me of the feeling I get about one of the local politicians where I live. The man is positively obsessed with the possibility that library patrons are using public computers for porn viewing as some sort of widespread epidemic (which in terms of reality of what people use the computers for, for real, is actually pretty insane). <br><br>The more I hear and read about this person\'s "concerns" the more I get a sense that he himself is kind of obsessed in a sort of not-okay way. It\'s as if he himself can\'t think about access to the internet without feeling like there will be some irresistable compulsion to look at porn .... and then projecting his own obsession on others and then acting all moralistic about it.<br><br>Again, this is by no means an analogy more generally to the topic under discussion (to be clear, I am not equating gay sex with porn, nor am I suggesting that all these arguments come from a space of gay people in denial ... and here\'s hoping people can get the nuances and subtlety of what I am actually trying to communicate with this story). <br><br>It\'s more a way for me to try to further describe my increasing sense that there is something unhealthy, obsessive and projecting-own-obsession-onto-others about some of the anti-gay arguments I\'ve been seeing out there.<br><br>I hope this makes sense outside the discussions going on in my house, that I am articulating at least somewhat clearly what I am trying to name.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851246">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851246" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851246" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851246" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851246" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851246" class="dsq-comment-message"><i>I am not following this discussion closely because quite frankly the heterosexism/homophobia on display here is starting to wear down my tolerance.</i><br><br>::<br><br>Say it again.<br><br>As for the rest of your comment:<br><br>When I said to one of our resident homophobes that s/he doth protest too much, this is exactly what I meant.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851497">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851497" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851497" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3851497">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851497" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851497" class="dsq-comment-message"><i>When I said to one of our resident homophobes that s/he doth protest too much, this is exactly what I meant.</i><br><br>I remember that comment! I didn\'t get what you meant at that point. Thank you for bringing it back in front of me.<br><br>(Apparently I am still catching up in terms of understanding the dynamics of all this  :)  )</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851879">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851879" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851879" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851879" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851879" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851879" class="dsq-comment-message">The biggest homophobes live in the tiniest closets.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3861091">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3861091" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3861091" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3861091">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3861091" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3861091" class="dsq-comment-message">Homosexuals used accusations against others to deflect from their completely narcissitic views when they run up against facts that dispel all the myths and fallacies they use to support their positions on aberrant sexual conduct.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3861581">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3861581" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3861581" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3861581" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3861581" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3861581" class="dsq-comment-message">The biggest homophobes live in the tiniest closets.<br><br>And protest too much.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3861874">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3861874" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3861874" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3861874" href="http://www.actsoffaithblog.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Acts Of Faith Blog</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3861874" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3861874" class="dsq-comment-message">Funny you should mention this. Last week I found photos of a guy I\'d met 3 years ago at a No on 8 rally with his partner. I thought was gay though he had been married at the time (and getting divorced). When I asked him about it he denied it and tried to shame me for even suggesting it. With a lot of the arguments whiterosebuddy uses.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3889144">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3889144" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3889144" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3889144">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3889144" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3889144" class="dsq-comment-message">Craig, the reason I didn\'t get your initial comment about this is that I wasn\'t sure I feel it specifically about these people being closeted gay people. I wasn\'t sure.<br><br>Now as I watch the discussion unfold and reflect more on what I have seen, I am much more of the opinion that the core issue is a pathological relationship with sex itself, and that the gender of the sex partner isn\'t the issue as much as a horrific way of understanding and experiencing any sort of sex.<br><br>Of course I\'m still learning as I go.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851749">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851749" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851749" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3851749">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851749" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851749" class="dsq-comment-message"><blockquote><i>I was saying that I am starting to get a strong sense that some of the anti-gay arguments out there have what I would consider to be an unhealthy obsession with sex -- that is, an unhealthy and misdirected obsession with what other people do with our private parts etc.</i></blockquote><br>LOL!!   That always makes me suspicious.   In fact, even within my own thinking...whenever I\'m obsessed about anything, it\'s a sign to me,  that I\'ve got issues.    I think the two groups sort of feed off of each other.   The puritanism of the anti-gays inspire gays to excessively flaunt their sexuality...to be "seen"...I mean, I can\'t think of any other reason for a man to wear only a thong in public.<br><br>Anyway, I agree that there\'s too much objection ...maybe deep down they sense that their heterosexuality is as tenuous an impulse as they insist gayness is.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3871537">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3871537" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3871537" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3871537">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3871537" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3871537" class="dsq-comment-message">That is another lie and deception by the wicked gay movement.They brand any one opposed to them like they might have gay tendencies.This is cleverly done to silence their critics.We I am telling you it is the GAY  SO CALLED COMMUNITY THAT HAS NO RESPECT FOR THE STRAIGHT.THAT STATEMENT PROVES IT.HOMOS WANT TO CONVERT OR BELIEVE EVERYONE HAS HOMO TENDENCIES.AND THEY WANT US TO RESPECT THEM.HELL NO!!!!!!!!!THEY WILL NEVER SEE GAY MARRIAGE IN THIS COUNTRY,NOT WITHOUT BLOODSHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3874621">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3874621" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3874621" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3874621">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3874621" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3874621" class="dsq-comment-message">LOL at the troll "Kalagenesis" who I myself never saw here at JJP before the gay discussion.<br><br>Sweetie, you need to get more subtle. You\'re a little too wound. Take a deep breath. Cut down on the caps and the EXCLAMATION POINTS!!!!!!!!<br><br>Or maybe -- just maybe -- you  are doing satire. If so the CAPS AND EXCLAMATION POINTS OMG TEH GAYS OMG !!! are kind of blatant, but they are working for you :)<br><br>OMG!!!!!!! GAYS!!!!!!!!<br><br>GAYS!!!!!!</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3888154">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3888154" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3888154" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3888154">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3888154" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3888154" class="dsq-comment-message">Gays are no big deal if they respect other people they would get further</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3889931">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3889931" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3889931" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3889931">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3889931" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3889931" class="dsq-comment-message">OMG! You didn\'t use CAPS or exclamation points !!!! in a comment about Teh Gays.<br><br>*music floats in* <br><br>*ding - that\'s a bell chiming*<br><br>Somewhere in the heavens an angel just got its HS diploma. <br><br>It could have been a college diploma, but you forgot to use punctuation (hint: period and comma MIA)</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3880552">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3880552" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3880552" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3880552">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3880552" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3880552" class="dsq-comment-message">The funny thing about the \'branding\' is that there position they advocate from is that the conduct is normal...so why then fling that accusation if the conduct is acceptable and appropriate?<br><br>Why does anyone think the ultimate put down of an opposing argument is to call them \'gay\'?<br><br>It is twisted and warped psychology...also known as self-hate.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3861062">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3861062" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3861062" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3861062">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3861062" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3861062" class="dsq-comment-message">The statements are not objections. They are rather a reasoned opposition on a topic that others are unable to rebut factually and which has not been derailed by emotional tangents.<br><br>In short, those who advocate for this issue have not once been able to present an articulate cogent argument that is holds up to a factual well-reasoned rebut.<br><br>The inability to prevail in an argument does not mean the opposing argument is unhealthy or obsessive.<br><br>What it means is that your position is flawed and cannot withstand well thought out logical arguments.<br><br>After all, I stated long ago that I supported civil unions.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3867343">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3867343" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3867343" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3867343">Val</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3867343" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3867343" class="dsq-comment-message">Whiterosebuddy.  I get what you are saying and you are on point.  You are getting slammed when you don\'t deserve to be.   You have written on this topic several times on several posts and not once did I read anything where you said you condemned homosexuality.  You did provide the counter arguments to many points and if most would step back and look at it objectively would see it is very insightful.<br><br>We are fighting the wrong battle people.  I understand that this is an emotional issue but you are missing the point.  That is why this thing has gone on for so long.  Just like the majority of Americans, Whiterosebuddy has repeatedly said she supports civil unions.  <br><br>This is something we ALL/or most of us can support and isn\'t that the goal?  Can\'t we all work to push through an agenda that ensures that couples in same sex relationships/civil unions get equal rights under the law?  Can\'t we agree that DOMA is WRONG and it needs to be repealed or is it more important for everyone to say that they no longer believe marriage is between a man and a woman?  <br><br>That is why this issue is at a stand still.  We should be more focused on everyone using their energies, money and time into making sure equality is a moral imperative for gays and lesbians and that NONE of our laws discriminate in any way against any group.<br><br>Instead, the focus is on Whiterosebuddy and the fact that she pointed out that sexual conduct is a behavior (choice) and not who you are (genetic).  You lost sight of the fact that she has consistently said she is willing to stand with you to support civil unions and that EVERYBODY deserves the same equal rights . . . . . this is one of the main reasons why this issue is still in stalemate . . . . . we are fighting the wrong battle. <br><br>Ya\'ll can bash me too but that is alright.  I am grown and i\'ll take it for a little while.  Because I have nothing but love for everyone here on JJP.  Now when we decide to put our heads together and figure out a way to take this thing to another level (completely repeal DOMA, get the states behind Civil Unions and making sure it includes equal rights for all) let me know.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3872623">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3872623" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3872623" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3872623">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3872623" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3872623" class="dsq-comment-message">Val,<br><br>I was initially very interested in the possibility of working together on areas of shared agreement when this topic first came up including civil unions, which to me would be just fine and in fact preferable. <br><br>I engaged in deliberately calm discussion with whiterosebuddy when this topic first came up and was very glad to see this and other areas of shared agreement. <br><br>But something has shifted for me along the way. I can pinpoint right when it happened. It was when I decided to look into the initiative that passed in Arkansas (<a href="http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5j92e9g5RVPEgCyREmVOEb37CC7LAD949D6V00" rel="nofollow">AP article here</a>), which I find deeply and profoundly cruel. <br><br>I read the <a href="http://adoptionact.familycouncilactioncommittee.com/" rel="nofollow">website of the group that promoted the initiative </a> and tried to understand where they were coming from. I was sickened, actually.<br><br>I don\'t have or want children, myself. But to my surprise, the energy of such an initiative and the group promoting it affected me profoundly. To my eyes, they are cruel, Val. In a deep and serious and needless way -- cruel. Which to me raised the question: why? Why this ugly energy?<br><br>And during my previous discussion with whiterosebuddy, our place of disagreement was that whiterosebuddy believes that same-gender couples should not be allowed to raise children together. I didn\'t really understand what that meant at the time. I just didn\'t take in the actual bizarre cruelty of this stance until I started reading and thinking about and taking in some of the energy of the proponents of that initiative in Arkansas.<br><br>And in trying to understand the real source of the truly horrific energy coming from the Arkansas proponents whose website I read, I was particularly struck by one part of <a href="http://adoptionact.familycouncilactioncommittee.com/index.asp?pageid=4" rel="nofollow"> their website\'s FAQ.  </a><br><br><i>2. Will this measure prevent single parent adoptions?<br>No. This law will not prevent single homosexuals or single heterosexuals from adopting children as long as they refrain from cohabiting. It will have no effect on adoptions that have already occurred.<br><br>3. Will this measure prevent single parent foster care?<br>This act will not prohibit single individuals from serving as foster parents as long as they refrain from cohabiting. It does prevent single cohabiting persons from serving as a foster parent. If a single person begins cohabiting after becoming a foster parent, they could be disqualified.</i><br><br>I would encourage everyone reading this to stop right there and think about this stance very carefully.<br><br>The proponents of this initiative would rather have single people raising adoptive or foster children than couples who are "co-habitating."<br><br>This was when I started to get that there was some pathology, deep pathology, here. Deep and serious pathology about sex that in my opinion is not going to be amenable to coalition "where can we agree" kind of dialogue and work together.<br><br>And then I have been and am watching the discussions here at JJP and seeing that the person who I initially sought areas of agreement with ... talks about sex in what I experience as a very creepy way. I know wrb probably does not have the same stance as that Arkansas group re: single parenting/foster parenting. But there are some patterns that connect for me nonetheless.<br><br>A comment very recently in this discussion here from whiterosebuddy states extremely clearly what I was seeing in somewhat less clear statements all along:  <br><br><i>Your first sexual encounter is no different from the first time you are offered drugs or liquor. You get to decide to engage in that conduct no matter what the gender of the individual is. The probability of that chance being equal is not the issue, the probability of what you choose to do is the issue. Everyone decides with equal chance whether to imbibe, inhale or fornicate. Conduct is always a choice.</i><br><br>As far as I\'m concerned, this statement comes from an individual who either experiences sex as compulsive and pathological, or has not actually had sex and is parroting other people/groups who have a pathological relationship with it. <br><br>To compare sex to addictive substances in such a way suggests to me that we are dealing with people/groups who have some sort of sex addiction, whether they are acting on it or not. <br><br>Now, I do understand that people struggle with compulsions and addictions, and that this is no reason to not try to work with them. But here\'s the problem, Val: my analysis of the situation at this point is that the hard-core anti-gay "politics" are coming largely from proponents\' own irresponsible orientation to their own pathology. <br><br>My analysis at this point is that they have projected their own compulsive pathological relationship with sex onto other people -- they are falsely universalizing their own sickness -- and are using the power of an already sex-pathological, heterosexist/homophobic society to play out their own psychological issues in what I see as an abusive way. <br><br>What I see is that they are selfishly trying to deal with their own sick relationship with sex covering it under other things and by hurting other people.<br><br>Over and over in my life, I have learned that I have almost no tolerance for people and groups that run their own self-referential psychological dramas to the detriment of whatever might be productively accomplished. <br><br>I have seen a lot of this on the left (including white progressive and white feminist contexts) and I have seen it in personal situations as well. I have learned I don\'t have tolerance for this. It is self-referential, it is incredibly harmful and it is deeply deceptive because it hides the real situation under political-sounding rhetoric.<br><br>This psycho-drama-focus offends me very very strongly, on levels I would call spiritual and political, that go beyond any words I could use to express. On a more practical level, I have found that it is pretty much impossible for me to have any actual communication with people in this space. I just don\'t experience them as "sane" and for me communication becomes like trying to have a dialogue in a eerie distorted funhouse type thing, with all the crazy distorted mirrors.<br><br>And I also recognize -- very clearly -- that the gay marriage proponents are running their own version of ego-drama. I knew going into the discussions here at JJP that their approach offends me deeply as well. <br><br>But initially, I had not had enough exposure to the hard-core people on the other side to have any sense at all about the deep pathology they are carrying and seeking to deal with by projecting on others. I had no idea about their sick relationship to sex itself.<br><br>One layer of my unwillingness to work on areas of (seeming) shared agreement comes from the gut-level revulsion I have for those who would seek to cope with their own diseased relationship to sex by projecting it on others. If someone has such a sickness and is struggling honestly with it, that\'s ok with me. I might find it somewhat creepy on shallow levels, but if they take clear, honest and real responsibility for it, I think I could handle it.<br><br>But this denial of the illness and this related harm to other people out of the denial is ... I experience it as something approaching actual evil, Val. That is how deeply repulsed I am. What I find most repulsive is the deep dishonesty of this approach, and the cruelty of it as well.<br><br>So I myself personally -- and please know that I am speaking only for myself personally -- have come to the conclusion that I myself cannot have dialogue or work with with the hard-core people who to my eyes display this pathological relationship to sex and try to foist off the responsibility for their own illness onto others through inflicting harm under the guse of supposedly calm political stances. <br><br>I find the energy of this to be actually repulsive, and in actual practice I cannot remain open enough to truly be useful in dialogue and collaboration. <br><br>I am open to dialogue and collaboration with those who do not have this pathological relationship to sex underneath their claimed political or related stances. <br><br>And there may well be plenty of people who don\'t have an unhealthy relationship to sex but who, for various possible other reasons, are not in favor of same-gender marriage but are ok with civil unions or civil marriage. <br><br>(Although in full disclosure, it\'s also the case that this issue is not my top priority in terms of change for this country.)<br><br>I only speak for myself. It may be that others have more tolerance for the energy underneath this than I do and that they will be able to engage in useful collective efforts that I couldn\'t bear to be part of.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3880754">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3880754" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3880754" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3880754">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3880754" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3880754" class="dsq-comment-message">None of what you are saying is true. nada. It is warped twisted psychobabble to support some fear you hold.<br><br>I used examples that were indicative of choices people make when introduced to something intitally. It could have been your first taste of ice cream or your first slice of apple pie. The point was simply that when you try it you like it. It is PLEASURABLE not that as you choose to misconstrue it as some \'addictive/compulsive\' behavior.<br><br>Geesh...you see demons and seek to demonize where there are none and no malintent.<br><br>Stop projecting your fears onto to others as them having some malcious intent to justify your own fears and insecurities.<br><br>Unbelievable what a cliff you went off on that.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3882265">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3882265" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3882265" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3882265">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3882265" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3882265" class="dsq-comment-message">whiterosebuddy, I am answering this comment above -- <a href="http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3882213" rel="nofollow">right here </a> -- since the comments start to get so skinny at this point that words get squished together...</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3887733">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3887733" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3887733" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3887733">Val</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3887733" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3887733" class="dsq-comment-message">Michelle -- virtual hugs.  <br><br>What can we do to level the playing field?  That is what I want to do.  I want equality for all.  I will stand with you and fight the same as I did for Obama.  <br><br>Equal rights for couples under civil unions.  No discrimination for anyone under any circumstances and repeal DOMA.  <br><br>What can I/we do?  Where do we begin because I don\'t know.  Educate me.  A new JJP post regarding actionable steps on this matter would be appreciated.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3889225">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3889225" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3889225" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3889225">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3889225" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3889225" class="dsq-comment-message">Thanks Val<br><br>Re: your interest and having a new JJP post -- maybe you should email this comment and suggestion to the JJP site owners ... <br><br>I\'m thinking about what you wrote and would be interested in seeing a bigger discussion. <br><br>I don\'t have any answers right now, but maybe discussion here on a broader scale could pull some useful practical something out into view.<br><br>That is -- IF the discussion isn\'t hijacked by extremism from either side<br><br> (meaning no "marriage or bust" rigidity or other drama from that side OR any sort of disrespectful statements/arguments about gay people being wrong in any way - and I would have to add being wrong as parents of children to that after what I have seen)  <br><br>I wonder if there could be a JJP post focused on what you are asking without getting derailed<br><br>Something where participants are trying to open up practical ideas and creativity and discussion.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3892137">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3892137" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3892137" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3892137">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3892137" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3892137" class="dsq-comment-message">Hi Val: <br><br>&lt;a href="<br><a href="http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3892120%22%3EHere%27s" rel="nofollow">http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2...</a> another reply with actual idea/info -- I put it at the top of the thread</a></div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3892147">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3892147" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3892147" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3892147">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3892147" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3892147" class="dsq-comment-message">Hi Val: <br><br><a href="http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3892120" rel="nofollow">Here</a> <br><br>is another reply with actual idea/info -- I put it at the top of the thread.<br><br>(posting it again bc the first attempt didn\'t quite work)</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3893356">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3893356" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3893356" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3893356">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3893356" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3893356" class="dsq-comment-message">Michelle, I will respond up thread later today. I have a few appointments this morning before my time is my own.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3880623">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3880623" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3880623" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3880623">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3880623" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3880623" class="dsq-comment-message">Thanks Val for hearing the arguments as presented. I indeed felt slammed yet knew I had agreed with the core issue.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3882213">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3882213" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3882213" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3882213">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3882213" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3882213" class="dsq-comment-message">This is a continuation of this thread of discussion starting <a href="http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3872623" rel="nofollow">here, below</a> (moved up because it was at the point where comments start to be so skinny the squash words together): <br><br>Whiterosebuddy, you are writing as if everything I see is my imagination. Again you can try to frame it that way, since rhetoric is what you do and is not reality-grounded. <br><br>But it is true and not my imagination that you yourself publicly made an analogy that I quoted and will quote again:<br><br><i>Your first sexual encounter is no different from the first time you are offered drugs or liquor. You get to decide to engage in that conduct no matter what the gender of the individual is. The probability of that chance being equal is not the issue, the probability of what you choose to do is the issue. Everyone decides with equal chance whether to imbibe, inhale or fornicate. Conduct is always a choice.</i><br><br>and it is also true that your reply to me now included this statement:<br><br><i>It could have been your first taste of ice cream or your first slice of apple pie. The point was simply that when you try it you like it. It is PLEASURABLE not that as you choose to misconstrue it as some \'addictive/compulsive\' behavior.</i><br><br>You may not understand how deeply horrific this experience and understanding of sex actually is in my eyes. You may not understand it because you feel it as normal and natural to comprehend and experience sex in this way.<br><br>To me, such a comprehension of sex is ... an abomination. Apparently I am very judgemental about this particular thing, which I didn\'t know before I got into this discussion.<br><br>And to me the abomination has two layers to it. The addiction one that you are currently backing off of is one of the layers. I think you are backing off of it because I shed light on how ugly it was and publicly embarrassed you to the point where you are backing off of it. I think that the most accurate comparison for you is in truth drugs and alcohol and along those lines. <br><br>This is not the first time you have used that analogy, to my memory -- and I continue to feel that as relevant even if you back off of it now that I have gotten into the implications.<br><br>BUT. Aside from that. I see another layer of this abomination that is -- I realize -- almost worse to me. In both your alcohol/drugs and your ice cream/pie/ metaphor, you are describing sex as an inanimate object, that an individual consumes for her or his pleasure. This is about what category sex is in in your eyes.<br><br>In your metaphor, there are two things: an individual, and some substance that the individual(s) are consuming for his/her pleasure. Those are the things that are in both your metaphors.<br><br>For me, sex is an a different category altogether. It is a form of interaction and communication between real beings.  And this is true whether it is a one-time thing or part of a relationship over time, and whether it is negative or positive interaction/communication. <br><br>To me it is a form of interaction and communication between beings -- NOT individual ego consuming a THING for its own pleasure as if there is no one else who is really involved, or as if the other being involved is only another disconnected individual consuming for him/her self.<br><br>WRB, I can\'t adequately express to you the horror I feel to think about people treating sex with other beings as if it is something for them to consume for their own individual selves. <br><br>I recognize that this is in fact the dominant culture approach to things. I recognize that the fundamentalist hard-core anti-gay whack-jobs are just basically promoting an understanding of sex that is part and parcel of the larger European/Christian cultural system. <br><br>I just .. I haven\'t really come in personal contact with someone who so clearly promotes this view before now. You can engage in wordplay all you want, but I now have a sense of how you understand (and experience?) sex and it is to me a horrifically bleak and ugly and outright horrifically damaging way to understand it. <br><br>(I have clearly been sheltered in my life so far in terms of personal interactions and in-depth discussions about these things.)<br><br>Good, bad or somewhere in between, I have always understood and experienced sex as one form of interaction/communication between beings and not some consumable object for the individual egos involved.<br><br>I still think you backed off the addictive substances metaphor because you saw the implications from my comment and realized that you had revealed something that made you look bad. <br><br>But only you know that for sure. The truth is that whatever you do or don\'t say about that here or elsewhere, reality is reality and somewhere inside yourself you will have that sinking feeling of covering up secrets if that is what you are doing. Words on a blog don\'t make reality go away.<br><br>But in addition to the addiction issues, the underlying foundational category of your metaphor -- sex as consumable object for an individual -- is itself incredibly horrifying to me.  <br><br>It amazes me that here we are in this discussion and I am supposed to be one of the ones who is "deviant" in a bad way because I have sex with a woman, and yet I find your category for sex to be such an abomination that it feels to me like the stuff of nightmares.<br><br>I look around and realize with deep gut-clarity now: oh no, THIS is the society I live in? Where people are treating sex like a consumable object? Where the Christian fundamentalists who are all freaky-repressed about sex and the capitalists who openly advocate for the individual consumption of the sex-object (in ads for example) are all united in their understanding of what this actually is even if they diverge on what do do about or with it?<br><br>And you know what, I see now how all this obsession with what gender the people are is in a marriage or union or whatever, all this angst over the suppose "gay agenda" functions to cover up this deeper festering sore in this society: the dominant cultural sickness related to sex, sex as object for the individual\'s consumption. <br><br>Some would advocate restraint in the consumption, others do not, but you\'re all in the same horrific disconnected consumption framework nonetheless.<br><br>To me, THAT is sick in itself, and I see -- finally I am getting this part of it -- I see how all this other stuff about the gender of who you have sex with serves to keep that actual festering sore from real critical scrutiny.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3861013">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3861013" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3861013" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3861013">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3861013" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3861013" class="dsq-comment-message">Michelle regarding:<br><br>"The more I hear and read about this person\'s "concerns" the more I get a sense that he himself is kind of obsessed in a sort of not-okay way. It\'s as if he himself can\'t think about access to the internet without feeling like there will be some irresistable compulsion to look at porn .... and then projecting his own obsession on others and then acting all moralistic about it."<br><br>----<br><br>Your \'concerns\' are about attacking the messenger as having some problem is very common to deflect from the issues which are being presented in a logical cogent manner. The morals issue you raise is more about the topic i.e. CPL raised the church as an issue.  I addressed the topic as set forth.<br><br>Furthermore, there is no unhealthy obession with sex.  The term homosexual has no other connonation than sex. It does not have a relationship connotation.  So, if that is the issue than sex will be discussed.<br><br>What you appear to be misconstruing is the focus on the topic at hand rather than going on tangents which have nothing to do with the core issues.  Focusing on the topic without going on tangents is not an obession.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3865522">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3865522" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3865522" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3865522">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3865522" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3865522" class="dsq-comment-message">whiterosebuddy, I didn\'t actually ask for or desire your response or input here. I was responding to Truthseeker and was happy to get her response. But predictably, here you are with a deluge of words and defensiveness.<br><br><i>Furthermore, there is no unhealthy obession with sex.</i><br><br>Your <b>rhetorical claims</b> about what your actions mean do not not override what I actually see you doing.<br><br>That is -- your actions in these discussions speak far far louder to me than your attempted framing of your actions.<br><br>I see your actions, whiterosebuddy, in these discussions about gay issues. I see them quite apart from your claims about what they are. You are visible directly, despite wanting only your interpretations to be visible. <br><br>You tell youself whatever deceptive little stories you want to tell yourself about your actions -- that\'s between you and yourself and your god, if you have one. <br><br>But as for me, I\'m onto you. And nothing you say about what you <i>claim</i> to be doing will override my actual direct observations of your actual actions here on this site in these threads.<br><br>This is the end of this thread of conversation with you or any other of the people who are doing what you are doing, from my end.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3880499">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3880499" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3880499" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3880499">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3880499" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3880499" class="dsq-comment-message">Michelle,<br>The only actions you see is are posting a reasoned argument. What you are/have been attempting to do is fine a motivation or intent beyond the argument.<br><br>This comes across as disingenuous because it attacks the messenger not the topic. Because you may have a motivation or intent beyond a well reasoned argument does not mean that is universally so.<br><br>I enjoy polemics.  You appear to want to find convenient labels and categories to impugn the messenger thus the message lacks credit. Your actions are similiar to the GOP who tried to kill Obama with his associations because they had no valid opposition in terms of policies. They therefore tried to impute motive and nefarious intent where there was none.<br><br>You are guilty of that here. Your response to truthseeker about me is the same as the nasty e mail campaign about Obama being a muslim. It is completely false and has no basis in fact and it\'s sole purpose is to discredit the messenger.<br><br>I think you may wish to ask why that is your need not try to impose your needs/motivates on others.<br><br>I am dealing with facts and data...you are seeking to attribute motivate where there is none.<br><br>In other words, there is nothing for you to be \'on to\'.  Either you can rebut the arugment with facts or you can\'t.  But your intent to smear me with inference, innuendo and speculation is a poor substitute for a substantative analysis of the issue.<br><br>What speaks loudest to me is your inability to raise a cogent rational argument for the position you hold. And a far greater need to attack the messenger as some sort of justification for that shortcoming.<br><br>It is completely ineffective. Because I am on to the fact that you have nothing to support your position but emotions and inflammatory words in hopes of smearing the message as you can\'t refute the message.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3861221">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3861221" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3861221" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3861221" href="http://pinkchocolatesunshine.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Tami</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3861221" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3861221" class="dsq-comment-message">"I was saying that I am starting to get a strong sense that some of the anti-gay arguments out there have what I would consider to be an unhealthy obsession with sex -- that is, an unhealthy and misdirected obsession with what other people do with our private parts etc."<br><br>Michelle, thank you, thank you for saying this.  <br>I do not think that many ant-gay marriage folks can get past the SEX in homosexual.  It is like they are fully and wholly hung up on gay sex in some twisted sort of way.  Why is it that gay people are "perverts" and "flaunt their sexuality", but one glance outside the door, one  internet search or a flip on the old tube shows heterosexuals letting it all hang out.  <br><br>As much as I hate to say it, some people have an unhealthy and warped sense homosexuality to the extent that it interferes with logical thinking.<br><br>I mean are we really defined by who we have sex with?  Are we that fundamental? Why is there this notion that homosexuals have sex and only hetrosexuals fall in love? <br><br>Tami<br><a href="http://pinkchocolatesunshine.com" rel="nofollow">http://pinkchocolatesunshine.com</a></div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3871440">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3871440" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3871440" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3871440">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3871440" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3871440" class="dsq-comment-message">That is a lie I often see homo people openly talk about sex no matter if children are around or not.Their sexuality is their total identity.This is going to cause a violent backlash if they keep insisting on pushing their agenda down every ones neck.Look at MTV/VH1 SOME TIME WHEN THEY TRY TO NORMALIZE THEIR BEHAVIOR.NEXT TO THE NORMAL PEOPLE THEY ALWAYS BRING UP SEX OR INTIMACY.REGULAR PEOPLE ENGAGE EACH OTHER ON MANY LEVELS!!!!!!GAYS IT IS ALL ABOUT THEM AND THEIR IMPULSES!!!!!!SO I SAY YES TO THE PROP,NO GAY MARRIAGE.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3860943">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3860943" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3860943" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3860943">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3860943" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3860943" class="dsq-comment-message">I  don\'t strongly identify with being a heterosexual. I don\'t claim sexual conduct as an identity in any way. The only distinctions are the terms themselves which describe the gender of the partner. The fact that the terms are descriptors of the partners gender does not make it an identity.<br><br>There is no insistence that the law gives special consideration based on sexual conduct. In fact, that is the core problem for homosexuals they want to have special distinctions based on sexual conduct.<br><br>No, behaviors are never the sum total of the individual. Conduct is what you do, what you choose to do, it is not who you are.<br><br>Your first sexual encounter is no different from the first time you are offered drugs or liquor. You get to decide to engage in that conduct no matter what the gender of the individual is.  The probability of that chance being equal is not the issue, the probability of what you choose to do is the issue. Everyone decides with equal chance whether to imbibe, inhale or fornicate.  Conduct is always a choice.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844111">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844111" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844111" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3844111" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844111" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844111" class="dsq-comment-message">whiterosebuddy,<br><br>In this instance, yes, conduct does not necessarily equal identity.  But again, the state cannot discriminate against conduct just because it wants to.  It must have a reason.  And, in the case of homosexual conduct, that reason must be rationally based in some government interest.<br><br>The matter of homosexual conduct falls under the Due Process clause of the 14h Amendment.  Meaning, the state cannot treat similarly situated people disimilarly.<br><br>As CraigHickman already noted, the case of <i>Lawrence v. Texas</i> addresses this point as it relates to homosexual conduct.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844484">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844484" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844484" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3844484">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844484" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844484" class="dsq-comment-message">But the government already discriminates against conduct when it does not sanction brother/sister or parent/offspring to marry.<br><br>I cannot follow your \'due process\' reasoning.  I am only familiar with due process as the right to trial by peers vs. vigilante mob lynching.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845251">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845251" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845251" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3845251" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845251" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845251" class="dsq-comment-message">whiterosebuddy,<br><br>My mistake, I should not have used the phrase, "similarly situated people disimilarly."  That is actually an equal protection/identity argument.  However, the reasoning still applies to conduct.<br><br>As to your other point, there are health reasons for not allowing brother and sister/parent and offspring to marry (small genetic pool, resulting in higher chance of birth defects, etc.).  As I said before, arguments for a rational basis will find more success in more conservative jurisdictions than liberal . . . that\'s where the politics meets the law.  And that\'s where both sides just agree to disagree and fight it out in court.<br><br>But, back to the Due Process issue . . . I posted the following in response to your post below, but it still applies here as well:<br><br>Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment says:<br><br>"No State shall . . . deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law. . . "<br><br>The Court relied on the Due Process Clause in <i>Lawrence v. Texas</i>:<br><br><i>"The present case (<i>Lawrence</i>) does not involve minors.  It does not involve persons who might be injured or coerced or who are situated in relationships where consent might not easily be refused.  It does not involve public conduct or prostitution.  It does not invovle whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.  The case does involve two adults who, with full and mutual consent from each other, engaged in sexual practices common to a homosexual lifestyle.  The petitioners are entitled to respect for their private lives.  <b>The State cannot demean their existence or control their destiny by making their private sexual conduct a crime.  Their right to liberty under the Due Process Clause gives them the full right to engage in their conduct without intervention of the government.  \'It is a promise of the Constitution that there is a realm of personal liberty which the government may not enter.\'  The Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual."</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br> . . . The following practically begs for a gay marriage challenge:<br><br><i>"Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in <b>its manifold possibilities,</b> they might have been more specific.  They did not presume to have this insight.  <b>They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress.  As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom."</b></i> (emphasis added)<br><br>The Court is at least inviting this discussion of gay marriage.  It at least acknowledges the right for gay relationships to exist.  <br><br>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships . . . then I see no reason why gay marriage (the logical progression of a relationship) should be treated any differently as a liberty protected by the Due Process Clause than heterosexual marriage.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845319">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845319" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845319" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3845319" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845319" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845319" class="dsq-comment-message"><i>And if, like gay sex, the act of gay marriage has no real difference with which the State can legitimately claim a rational interest in discriminating against heterosexual relationships, but not homosexual relationships </i><br><br>sorry . . . swap "heterosexual relationships" and "homosexual relationships" in that sentence.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3859754">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3859754" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3859754" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3859754">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3859754" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3859754" class="dsq-comment-message">Your statement is premised on sexual conduct being the basis marriage is sanctioned by the state.  Sexual conduct is not the reason the state provides benefits to the individual. Marriage is more than sexual conduct.  Marriage is granted benefits, by the state, precisely  because it  DOES circumscribes \'due process;  the individual loses and is limited in their constitutional right to pursue life, liberty etc.  <br><br>Because marriage limits that fundamental right, the state has a rational interest in providing incentives for the individual to pursue marriage even though their constitutional due process rights would be limited.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3870046">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3870046" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3870046" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3870046" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3870046" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3870046" class="dsq-comment-message">The purpose of that statement was to discuss the <b>act</b> of marrying another person.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3859675">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3859675" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3859675" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3859675">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3859675" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3859675" class="dsq-comment-message">But...<br>Regarding the due process clause...the government is not denying the person or individual the right to pursue etc...what the government is doing is prohibiting CONDUCT of the individual because sex is something you DO not who you are.<br><br>That individual has the right to marry like all other individuals in this society the opposite sex. So as human beings they are not being discriminated against.<br><br>However, the government does prohibit specific conduct...they prohibit marriage between brother/sister, parent/offspring as well as polygamy and bestiality.<br><br>Conduct and behavior are under the governments purview to legally sanction or not.<br><br>Lawrence found no fundamental right nor fundamental liberty it failed to recognize a fundamental right to sexual privacy and it did not conclude an evern more general right to engage in private sexual conduct would be a fundamental right.<br><br>The essence of Lawrence is that the conduct cannot be criminalized.  Not that there is some fundamental constitutional right to sexual privacy.<br><br><br><br>Had it done so it would open the door to pedophilia.<br><br>Had it done so it would still not provide a challenge to marriage as the institution and it\'s benefits is not about private sexual conduct but about the benefits to society to have children raised with two parents and to have society not bear the financial responsibility. There is no sexual privacy right granted under the institution of  marriage.<br><br>You cannot use the institution of marriage as a cover for bigamy or polygamy.<br><br>Your due process argument appears to not make a distinction between the government not being able to deprive an individual vs. the government clearly having the right to make laws against specific conduct.<br><br>I think this happens because folks are confusing conduct with identity.  Behaviors are what individuals do, and the government has always had the right to legislate against behaviors and encourage specific acts based on social policy BUT.<br><br>What homosexuals have tried to do is claim a sexual behavior as an identity.   What you do is not who you are. <br><br> Nor should there be a special class or group designated or granted privileges based on their conduct.  Are we going to grant siblings a special right based on their conduct?<br><br>Your argument is premised on reasoning that sexual behavior or conduct creates a class or group and that is a fundamental error.  What a person does sexually does not create a new class or group.<br><br>There are simply individuals who engage in specific behaviors or conducts, which may or maynot be legal under the law.<br><br>All of those individuals are granted the same fundamental rights under the constitution.<br><br>Marriage cannot be reasoned as a fundamental right based on individual sexual  conduct.  Especially given that the state has no inherent interest in encouraging that conduct.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3869988">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3869988" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3869988" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3869988" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3869988" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3869988" class="dsq-comment-message">Caselaw acknowledges marriage as a fundamental right.  It\'s not to say that marriage is written in the constitution (to my knowledge it is not).  However, it is to say that the courts have interpreted the Constitution to include a protection of marriage as a fundamental right . . . similar to how courts have interpreted a fundamental right to privacy even though the Constitution makes no direct mention of "privacy."<br><br>I\'ve listed several cases, both in my comments and my original post, that recognize marriage as an understood, fundamental rights.<br><br>The question moving forward is whether that right should apply to homosexual couples as it already does to heterosexual couples.<br><br>I am not conflating the Due Process and Equal Protection Clauses of the 14th Amendment.  In fact, I was careful to list both as options A and B, respectively.  They are separate clauses, each with separate arguments regarding this issue.<br><br>An identity argument falls under the Equal Protection Clause.  An Act argument, in this instance, falls under the Due Process Clause.<br><br>Two separate arguments.  That one might fail (Equal Protection) does not mean that the other will as well (sidenote:  I\'m not saying an equal protection challenge would fail, but I\'m just assuming it would for the sake of this discussion).<br><br>The court can either say . . . we\'re dealing with two proposed <i>identities</i> (heterosexual and homosexual). .  .<br><br>Or . . . The court can say . . . we\'re dealing with two <i>ACTS</i> (gay marriage and straight marriage).. . . "marriage" being an act rather than a state of being.<br><br>The act is "marriage" . . . to marry.<br><br>So this is an argument of act, not necessarily identity.<br><br>Earlier, you characterized the act of marrying as:<br><i><b>". . . the right to marry like all other individuals in this society the opposite sex."</i></b><br><br>But, see. . . that\'s the distinction.  I don\'t accept the second half of that sentence ("opposite sex") to be controlling, here.<br><br>I can\'t think of a Supreme Court case that expressly defines "marriage" as being between people of the "opposite sex."  The only cases I can think of simply reference "marriage" with no mention of to whom one would marry.<br><br>On the contrary, I can cite a quote from <i>Lawrence</i> that says the States and Courts should <i>avoid</i> defining types of personal relationships (and <i>Lawrence</i> does describe the sexual act as entering into a "relationship") . . . here it is (my commentary is in brackets to reflect context):<br><br><i><b>The statutes [anti gay-sex laws] do seek to control a personal relationship [meaning, gay sex] that, whether or not entitled to formal recognition in the law, is within the liberty of persons to choose without being punished as criminals.<br><br>This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects."</i></b><br><br>Here, the Court is basically saying that the act (sex) is one of many private liberties implied by the Constitution, protected by the Due Process Clause.<br><br>This statement is made without mention or even consideration of whether or not homosexuality is an identity.  The Court simply took the act, divorced from identity, and said that there is no reason to treat the act of gay sex any differently than the act of heterosexual sex.  <br><br>This is not an Equal Protection judgment from the Court.  It protects the homosexual in the same way it protects the straightest man alive who, for whatever reason, might one day engage in a homosexual <b>act.</b><br><br>Now, as you\'ve said many times . . . the State can regulate conduct. . . <br><br>Yes . . .but I\'ve repeatedly responded by saying that the State must have a reason to regulate.  The state needs a reason.  And, in <i>Lawrence</i> the State could not find a reason to discriminate against the act of gay sex while not also discriminating against the act of heterosexual sex.<br><br>Well, some might ask . . . what about a slippery slope?  <br><br>Well, the Court anticipates that argument by reestablishing the manner in which many freedoms are curtailed should they adversely impact other, innocent human beings . . . <br><br>If we revisit the previous quote, we\'ll see how the Court does this (emphasis mine):<br><br><i>"This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries <b>absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects."</b></i><br><br>The safeguard against a slippery slope is to deny that which injures or abuses another person or institution protected by law.<br><br>Pedophilia is not protected because the law consistently holds that minors can not consent.  If there is no consent, there is no legal act.<br><br>Animals can not consent either . . . which is why beastiality is not legal.<br><br>Again, this is a Due Process argument focused on the liberty to act on that which is private and personal in nature . . . and, implicitly, does not injure or abuse. . . .which raises the oft-repeated argument:  Who are gay people hurting if they decide to get married?<br><br>The other caveat is a governmental interest.  One such interest is the states interest in the overall health and general welfare, which, as I\'ve noted, has been used to strike down incest between family members such as brother and sister (small gene pool, higher chance for birth defects).<br><br>Barring such caveats, the Court does recognize the need to respect and protect our freedom to act by staying out of our business.<br><br>As the Court notes (<i>Lawrence</i>), <br><br><i><b>"Liberty protects the person from unwarranted government intrusions into a dwelling or other private places.  In our  tradition the State is not omnipresent in the home.  And there are other spheres of our lives and existence, outside the home, where the State should not be a dominant presence.  Freedom extends beyond spatial bounds.  Liberty presumes an autonomy of self that includes freedom of thought, belief, expression, and certain intimate conduct."</b></i><br><br>We are more than our inherent identities . . . indeed, our full freedom of expression includes a host of actions and private decisions that we make every day.<br><br><i>Lawrence</i> dealt with one such act (sex) to say that government should not intrude on a consensual sex act where the only difference is that one act is homosexual and the other is heterosexual.<br><br>It\'s the <b>act</b> . . . <br><br>Marriage is also an act (to marry) . . . which leads many, myself included, to argue that the State and/or Courts should not interfere in the private act to marry . . . whether it be a private decision/act to marry a person of the opposite sex or a private decision/act to marry a person of the same sex.<br><br>This is an argument based on action, not identity.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3893050">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3893050" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3893050" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3893050">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3893050" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3893050" class="dsq-comment-message">B Serious<br>I will have to go back and re=read some of your posts, but I believe Lawrence was such a case that you were asserting there was a fundamental right to marriage and no such support is found in Lawrence.  <br><br>Your argument appears circuitous. First you say that there are 2 separate arguments, then you frame the question "going forward" as being about hetero vs. homo  (conduct) while suppositioning that there is a fundamental right to marriage  for INDIVIDUALS in case law. That is conflating the argument.  When you use terms about hetero vs. homo as the framing of the question you are talking about sexual conduct. When you throw in hetero vs. homo couple you are no longer talking about the rights of individual as well.  Your argument is either based on a flawed premise or your use of terms is not as we have agreed.<br><br>.When you frame the question as being about homo vs. hetero couples that is an identity argument. Yet you say you are not conflating the issue.  Hetero and homo are not groups of people the terms are simply descriptors of sexual conduct.  Nothing else is encompassed in the term. It is a behavioral term.  Which brings me back once again to the point that sexual conduct can be discriminated against criminally and prohibited under the law. <br><br>If for the sake of argument we agree that marriage is a fundamental right, then the Constitutionality is based on the individual not the idea that these individuals based on their behavior merit this fundamental right.<br><br>The argument gets most convulted when you describe sexual conduct as the defining ACT of marriage while simultaneous denying that sexual conduct is being used as an identity. i.e. gay vs. straignt marriage<br><br>In short, unless gay vs. straight is an identity there can be no argument in terms of an ACT of marriage. As the argument rests on the  ACT of sexual conduct not the individual, as the fundamental right.<br><br>With regards to how you disagree with an earlier assertion that marriage is granted to all individuals. You took issue with marriage being legal when it is opposite gender/  The statement, while you may disagree with it, tells us that ALL individuals in this society can marry. What your argument seeks to do is circumscribe marriage to specific sexual conduct, while the constitutionally fundamental right (conceded for this argument) is based on the inherent indiividual rights not individual behavior.<br><br>While personal relationships as you describe in Lawrence may be granted liberty.  Marriage is an institution, it is a legal entity, not a \'personal relationship under the law. It is primarily property and inheritance law, not a relationship. Society then has policy based on the property law.  Personal relationship is not granted in the institution of marriage.  Lawrence is based on the sexual conduct and the boundaries of the state, it is not about the institution of marriage.  I see no corollary between personal relationship and the institution of marriage.  Rather, this is the flawed premise many gay advocates promote as it leads to an emotional argument not based on facts.<br><br>You further assert that Lawrence was about sexual conduct independent of \'identity\' and again that is because there is no such identity to recognize. Sodomy is not specific to a gender/ The court felt no need to make such a distinction. The court however did not , as you assert, find a fundamental right to sexual privacy. What the court found was that the INDIVIDUAL can choose to engage in sodomy, without it being criminalized.<br><br>The court is basically saying the INDIVIDUAL, based on constitutional \'due process\' can CHOOSE to engage in sexual conduct. However, there is no ergo with regards to marriage. Lawrence does not implying anything about marriage or the insittuion of marriage. When you say the court took the ACT, independent of identity, ...  The law recognized that all individuals can engage in the specific act the law criminalized. The court recognized that sodomy is not specific to the same gender sex.  In short, the court said the gender of your partner when it comes to sexual conduct is a choice.  Nothing there about marriage.<br><br>You then go on to argue based on this::<br>"This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects."\\<br><br>Once again you  frame the question as how does gay marriage harm the institution of marriage.  I have consistently replied that is a strawman argument.  Harm does not need to be shown for the state to find no compelling interest to extend the benefits of the institution of marriage to individuals who are not giving up individual liberties in the interest of the state.<br><br>Rather, homosexuals are seeking to sanction their indivdiual liberties with the institution of marriage.  Marriage was not granted benefits as a insittuiton because it was to enhance individaul freedom, those benefits were granted because the individual was being denied individual pursuits by entering into the institution of marriage.  The liberties given up were promiscuity and property, all of which benefitted the state. Ergo the state set forth policies to compensate the individual for the liberties they LOST by becoming married under the law.<br><br>Homosexuals can neither show a loss of individual liberty nor a benefit to the state that warrants the ACT of marriage.  Especially as the ACT of marriage is granted to ALL individuals, homosexuals can show no INDIVIDUAL denial of marriage, they can only put forth an argument based on sexual conduct.  Sexual conduct which they have the \'liberty to pursue\' and which is an adult liberty they choose not to give up to comply with the vested interest of the STate for the interest of society and community and children.<br><br>Homosexual pursuit of marriage is the antithesis of the legal framework of marriage and the exhaltation of adult liberty ...the very thing the state circumscribes when individuals enter into the matrimonial state.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3905354">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3905354" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3905354" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3905354" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3905354" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3905354" class="dsq-comment-message">I never said <i>Lawrence</i> granted a fundamental right of marry.  The fundamental right to marry has already existed for decades, if not more.  It\'s been stated numerous times in the caselaw.  One need not reference <i>Lawrence</i> when arguing the fundamental right to marry because that right came about before <i>Lawrence</i> even existed.  <br><br>The caselaw is clear.  The Court recognizes a fundamental right "to marry."  It recognizes that this act is fundamentally protected by our Constitution.  There\'s really no way around that.  Even more, case law repeatedly refers to the ACT of marrying, not the institution of marriage when explaining this right. . . .the Court refers to the act . . . "to marry."<br><br>Regarding gay marriage, the Court will have to ask whether the act of marrying someone of the same sex can justifiably be treated any differently than the act of marrying someone of the opposite sex.<br><br>To the best of my knowledge, the U.S. Supreme Court has not defined the act of marrying.  I can\'t even think of a case where the U.S. Supreme Court specifically defines marriage as being between a man and a woman.  As far as I know, that case does not exist.<br><br><i>Lawrence</i> is important because it addresses the ongoing, generic question of whether a State may criminalize/discriminate against a gay act while not criminalizing/discriminating against heterosexual acts.<br><br>And the Court in <i>Lawrence</i> most definitely talked of gay acts . . .<br><br>You said the following:<br><i>"What the court found was that the INDIVIDUAL can choose to engage in sodomy, without it being criminalized."</i><br><br>This answers a legal question that was not asked by the Court.<br><br>From the case . . . <br><br>Legal question:<br><i><b>"The question before the Court is the validity of a Texas statute making it a crime for two persons of the same sex to engage in certain intimate sexual conduct."</b></i><br><br>"two persons of the same sex" . . . homosexual acts.  That\'s where the Court began . . . .that\'s how the Court framed the issue.<br><br>You mention the following:<br><i><b>"Harm does not need to be shown for the state to find no compelling interest to extend the benefits of the institution of marriage to individuals who are not giving up individual liberties in the interest of the state."</i></b><br><br>You define said liberties as "promiscuity" and "property."  These are not specific to sexual orientation/preference.  Gay people can own and lose property as well.  Gay people can be promiscuous and monogamous as well.<br><br>And your argument is based on the "institution of marriage" whereas the Courts address the liberty to marry.<br><br>This is far from a strawman argument.  The government needs a reason to act.  It needs a reason to restrict.  One such reason is harm to other people and institutions.  It\'s valid question.  Indeed it is crucial to the anti-gay marriage side of the argument.<br><br>Every law has a reason behind it.  The law can make distinctions among different groups and conduct.  But it must have a reason to do so.<br><br>Find a law and you\'ll surely find a reason for that law.  The Government cannot act without reason.  The government can\'t say . . . "we deny people under 5 feet the liberty to where red ties" without giving a valid reason.  No matter how grand or trivial, the government needs a reason.  It might be a poor reason, but there must be a reason nonetheless.<br><br>Again, our laws and Constitution are written in negative speech.  The law doesn\'t say you have a right to free speech.  No, the law says:<br><br><i>"Congress <b>shall make no law</b> . . . abridging the freedom of speech . . . "</i><br><br>That\'s how our laws our written.  The government doesn\'t grant liberties so much as it restricts how those pre-existing liberties are applied.  And when it restricts, the government must have a reason.  The government can take away your right to free speech . . . but it must have a reason to create an exception.  In part, such exceptions are understood by looking at past caselaw to anticipate future Court decision.  That\'s all we\'re doing with this issue of gay marriage.<br><br>The anti-gay marriage argument isn\'t that the State may ban without cause, but that it may ban for reasons . . . x, y and z.  And it\'s up to the courts to decide whether or not those reasons are sufficient.  Some courts say yes, others say no . . . and it\'ll all end up on the lap of the U.S. Supreme Court. . . .a Court with a swing of one or two votes (as is the case with many other controversial issues).<br><br>Do you have any caselaw whereby the U.S. Supreme Court specifically defines the liberty to marry?  Do you have any caselaw that defines how and between whom that act should occur?  I can\'t think of any. <br><br>But the government needs a reason.  It\'s essential to the contract it has with it\'s citizens.  It\'s part of the glue that keeps this crazy experiment together.  <br><br>Indeed, it\'s essential to that all-powerful universal question . . . The day we can\'t ask "why?" is the day we cease being a democracy.<br><br>Due Process is just a fancy way of saying . . . a reason . . . a system . . . a rule by which the government is bound to obey before it might take away a right (rights that are granted through negative speech in our U.S. Constitution). . . an explaination of "why?"<br><br>And said rights have been written in the broadest of terms so that they might maintain their relevance in an evolving society.  They invite . . . even demand interpretation.  There would be no use for the Judicial Branch if this were not so.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843848">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843848" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843848" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3843848">kp</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843848" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843848" class="dsq-comment-message">I don\'t think that homosexuality is a choice...it is exactly like having brown skin; it isn\'t something you can turn on or off...it isn\'t a choice.  Because it isn\'t a choice; you cannot discriminate against people who are homosexual.  I know what the Old Testament says; but I know even better what the New Testament says and as a Christian who believes in Jesus I know I cannot judge my brothers and sisters who are homosexual.  After all, the same bible was used to PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that people with brown skin were not human and could be enslaved.   <br> <br>Additionally marriage is supported by religion which I think is a great thing.  But it is only in the last few hundred years that marriage has become the religious event that we know today.  Wedding Cake didn\'t even enter the lexicon until the late 1600\'s.  Most "marriages" took place in living rooms not in churches.  In the real old time on some occasions the Lord of the manor would "deflower" the virgin bride the night before she went to her groom.   The people against gay marriage have built up this mythology around marriage which really never existed before in human civilization.  Marriage is about economics nothing more.  Commoners had their marriages in their living rooms to people their parent\'s chose for them.  The royals and wealthy married people their parents chose for them in a church because they could pay for them.  The average wedding for most of the 20th Century cost less than $500.00 because most took place at the Justice of the Peace.  The whole "myth" of marriage being this sacred institution is hogwash.  50% of marriages end in divorce even those that don\'t end in divorce (especially in our culture where estranged couples have whole other relationships while still being married) are not examples of healthy relationships.  Hell I know of folks in our class who live in their basement while their wives live upstairs.  But sometimes it is cheaper to keep her...SMILE!<br> <br>Marriage is a civil institution and by laws that already exist should be a civil right for all citizens of our country. You have to go to the "STATE" to apply for a marriage license.  When you want to end a marriage you have to go to the "STATE" for a decree ending a marriage.  By default marriage is a civil right.  You cannot deny citizens of a civil right.  You can deny them a religious ceremony; but not a civil right.<br><br>We can agree to disagree...but open your  brain and know what your civil rights are so you will understand when someone wants to take them away!</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843908">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843908" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843908" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3843908">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843908" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843908" class="dsq-comment-message">Are you insane?So let me get this people dying of aids having gay unprotected sex while the rest of us choose to keep our sexual impulses under control,is just the same as someone who simply is born black?Keep it up next time it will be 99% of African Americans supporting anti gay measures.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843977">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843977" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843977" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3843977">whiterosebuddy</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843977" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843977" class="dsq-comment-message">Not quite how I would have said it...but your incredulity is more than warranted.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844348">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844348" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844348" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3844348" href="http://www.bigassbelle.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">bigassbelle</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844348" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844348" class="dsq-comment-message"><i>Are you insane?So let me get this people dying of aids having gay unprotected sex while the rest of us choose to keep our sexual impulses under control,is just the same as someone who simply is born black?Keep it up next time it will be 99% of African Americans supporting anti gay measures.</i><br><br>I expect you\'re trolling, but let me say this "people dying of AIDS" are hardly limited to individuals having "gay unprotected sex." <br><br>"While the rest of us choose to keep our sexual impulses under control" . . . like the child molesters? and married men getting sucked off by some guy in the park bathroom on the way home? and the senators and congressmen getting caught with hookers? that kind of "under control"?</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3844625">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3844625" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3844625" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3844625">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3844625" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3844625" class="dsq-comment-message">First of all most people engage in sex in the confines of a marriage,a relationship, or partnership.The homos are the same as sexual predators,deviant,perverts.Why do most people discuss their sexuality among close friends or like mined people.Gays flaunt their sexuality in your face any time no discretion,shame,reserve and they wonder why we will fight them and make sure they stay in the closet.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845372">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845372" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845372" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3845372">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845372" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845372" class="dsq-comment-message">My first impulse was to call you you dumb, fucking asshole.   I resisted it.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3850862">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3850862" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3850862" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3850862">kalagenesis</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3850862" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3850862" class="dsq-comment-message">Like I said you people cant control your impulses that is why the majority of people have thought this thing out and the answer is NO TO GAY MARRIAGE.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3850932">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3850932" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3850932" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3850932">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3850932" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3850932" class="dsq-comment-message">I can see you\'ve thought, in a very limited bandwith....<br><br>All your conclusions seem based on preconceived prejudices.   There\'s nothing new....no new ideas.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3845342">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3845342" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3845342" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3845342">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3845342" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3845342" class="dsq-comment-message">You\'re comparing uncontrolled sexual impulses with being black....implying that if the one is negative and undesirable, then the other is also.<br><br>Sexual impulses ARE natural, as is being black.    Sexual impulses may be mis-directed into controlling, abusive,  violent pathways....but the original impulse - to touch intimately and join with another person, and to self pleasure - is natural.<br><br>It\'s interesting to note that at one time, blackness was strongly associated with uncontrolled sexual impulses.   It was thought that we did not marry, but engaged in wanton, random couplings.    That belief  was used to dehumanize us.<br><br>Does marriage and commitment make us human, or were we human before that?<br><br>It\'s interesting to see that you now use that same "uncontrolled sexual impulses" argument, applied to gays to dehumanize them.<br><br>Perhaps you feel that if gay relationships are legitimized via marriage, and they are demonstrated to commit via marriage,  then you can no longer use their supposed wantoness to dehumanize them.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851207">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851207" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851207" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851207" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851207" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851207" class="dsq-comment-message">Well stated.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3852692">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3852692" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3852692" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3852692">Lilytiger</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3852692" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3852692" class="dsq-comment-message">Once again, you live up to your name. I think you have found Truth.<br><br>Amazing.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3843987">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3843987" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3843987" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3843987" href="http://www.seesaw.typepad.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Liza Diamond</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3843987" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3843987" class="dsq-comment-message">I agree with you kp except for the part about choice. Homosexuality wasn\'t  a social identity or medical category until the last part of the 19th century. Nor was heterosexuality. Same sex relations have always existed, of course, but it was an activity that lots of people participated in with a variety of cultural and political rules of engagement.<br><br>So no, I don\'t think being homo is like having more or less quantity of skin pigment. The social meaning of that pigment, however, does depend on the cultural, political, historical and geographical moment. In other words, the meaning of the color of a person\'s skin is not transhistorical, any more than the meaning of homosexual or heterosexual activities.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851328">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851328" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851328" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851328" href="http://talesfromthe.net/jon" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">jon</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851328" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851328" class="dsq-comment-message">A couple of points:<br><br><i>What do people expect to gain from protesting on Nov. 5th that they couldn’t have secured through better organization on November 3rd?</i><br><br>The protests are a reaction to the fact that there *wasn\'t* better organization in October and early November.  Jasmine Beach-Ferrara’s <a href="http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2008/11/why_we_lost_in_california_an_a.php" rel="nofollow">Why We Lost in California: An Analysis of “No on 8″ Field Strategies</a> on The Democratic Strategist is a well-done strategic analysis of the Prop 8 campaign. <br><br>There\'s been a lot of discussion in the LGBTQ community about this, and the response from a lot of people is that they weren\'t invited to get involved in the "No on 8" campaign in any meaningful way beyind giving money or calling up the \'friendlies\' who were already likely to support the bill, for example.  <br><br>Rex Wockner’s <a href="http://wockner.blogspot.com/2008/11/stonewall-20-gay-activism-40.html" rel="nofollow">Stonewall 2.0? Gay Activism 4.0?</a>  from Tuesday has some good historical context of this.  <br><br><i>For example: Comparing gay marriage to Loving v. Virginia is an emotional tactic. </i><br><br>It may be an emotional tactic; it\'s also important for legal purposes, because Loving v. Virginia explicitly states "Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival."  This lays the basis for a challenge to Prop 8 under the 14th Amendment\'s Equal Protection Clause.  From a legal perspective, your options A and B aren\'t mutually exclusive.  And for that matter, organizing and legal options aren\'t exclusive either.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851697">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851697" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851697" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851697" href="http://www.actsoffaithblog.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Acts Of Faith Blog</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851697" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851697" class="dsq-comment-message">The Yes on 8 organization spent 11 years working on a strategy and raising money. It was a cross section of people who came together for a common goal. They went to a cross section of people with otherwise divergent interests and got them to all agree on something.   <br><br>In looking at further strategies people have to take into consideration the entire history of the brutality of slavery and how that psychic wound has been passed down esp with regards to the sexual brutality and forced breeding of Black women. Also the media imagery that further contaminated how we are seen. Not everyone took on an inferiority complex or focused on racism exclusively, but the current Civil Rights leadership is really milking that victimization cow way past its prime. Also I\'d say the desire to have a strong intact family within the narrow definition of a traditional marriage was the desire of many and for some a reaction to historical barriers we\'ve had to overcome. Now it\'s time to do necessary internal work and let a lot of the negativity and apathy go and embrace all the choices we can make now that we can do so.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3851730">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3851730" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3851730" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3851730" href="http://craighickman.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">CraigHickman</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3851730" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3851730" class="dsq-comment-message">I found this blurb over on DK in a diary about all the black Republican shills who will be getting full airtime from now till.... whenever.<br><br>The blurb is about Rev. Eugene Rivers:<br><br><i>    Dr. Sylvia Rhue, Director of Equal Partners in Faith says, ‘We are disappointed in Reverend Rivers’ crusade of deliberate misinformation and outright malevolence against the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community, a community which is comprised of all colors, races, and ethnic groups. Mr. Rivers knows this and he pretends that it is not true.’<br><br>    Furthermore, Rivers’ statement, ‘Same-sex couples wanting to marry are white lesbians who seek the accouterments of family life,’ reflects his misunderstanding about the makeup of his community. According to a report published by the National Black Justice Coalition and the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute, based on the 2000 Census, black same-sex households make up 14% of the same-sex households in the United States, greater than the 13% of the general population that is African-American. Black lesbian couple households are almost as likely as Black married opposite-sex couple households to include a child of one or both of the adults (69%). Nearly half of Black male same-sex couple households (46%) include a child of one or both of the partners. As Bishop John Selders, Presider of The Inter-Denominational Conference of Liberation Congregations and Ministries observes, laws discriminating against same-sex couples cut across racial lines: ‘There are significant numbers of people of color, African Americans in particular, who are equally discriminated against because of unjust laws.’ Bishop Selders adds, ‘I’m disappointed again by the shameful rhetoric espoused by brothers and sisters of color regarding same gender loving marriage.’<br><br>    As people of faith, we call on Reverend Rivers and other faith leaders to support the families of same-sex couples that are living in their congregations and communities. We ask them to lift up as examples of selfless love same-sex couples of all races who have dedicated themselves to each other and their children, despite, in many cases, receiving no legal benefits or protections for their commitment. And we call on all people of faith to join together to resist the attempts of the enemies of equality to divide along lines of race, class, sex, sexual orientation, or gender identity."<br></i><br><br>I know folks will get a kick out of her entire diary.<br><br><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/16/17113/204/105/661972" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/11/16/17113/...</a></div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3852338">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3852338" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3852338" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3852338">rikyrah</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3852338" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3852338" class="dsq-comment-message">the slave catchers...all of them.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3852862">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3852862" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3852862" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3852862">TruthSeeker</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3852862" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3852862" class="dsq-comment-message">That was a good one.  Thanks.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3855570">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3855570" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3855570" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3855570" href="http://www.reachblack.blogspot.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">B-Serious</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3855570" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3855570" class="dsq-comment-message">repost -- ignore</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3860830">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3860830" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3860830" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-3860830" href="www.ibeching.tumblr.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">ibeching</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3860830" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3860830" class="dsq-comment-message">this is a great post!<br><br>thanks B-serious, for this thorough treatment.  i don\'t have a legal background so it was really enlightening</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3897130">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3897130" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3897130" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3897130">aeromestiza</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3897130" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3897130" class="dsq-comment-message">I appreciate the practical strategies offered in the main post, and quite frankly I\'m  disgusted by the level of hatred expressed by others in the responses (did i read BLOODSHED before gay marriage?!?!? i think it\'s time to report a terrorist threat). I\'ve created a video blog in response to the majority of posts on the internet that frame this as an issue between gay white men and straight black people, which many of us know is highly problematic for obvious reasons. please view, comment and share:<br><a href="http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=46733313" rel="nofollow">http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids....</a></div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3871258">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3871258" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3871258" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3871258">Monica</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3871258" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3871258" class="dsq-comment-message">Sometimes I\'m a little slow on the uptake.  Why aren\'t civil unions acceptable?  Same-sex couples  would have the same rights as married spouses, tax breaks, property rights, adoption rights (in CA), etc.?<br><br>I don\'t know anyone (in their right mind) who opposes civil union.  <br><br>However,if someone values marriage primarily as a religious union in the eyes of God, a sanctified sacrament that is a testament of faith, with state issues such as property ownership coming secondary, they are not going to support gay marriage.<br><br>I don\'t disagree with that.  Just as you wouldn\'t want someone imposing their religious beliefs on you, you can\'t impose your disregard for their belief of them.<br><br>Finally, I know I sound like Sean Hannity (ugh) but laws prohibiting same-sex marriages also prohibited sibling marriage and polygamy.  Are you prepared to lift the bans on those marriages also.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3875280">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3875280" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3875280" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3875280">patatsea</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3875280" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3875280" class="dsq-comment-message">Civil unions are rarely equal to marriage in practice.  Marriages can cross state lines, civil unions can not.  In states with civil union laws, many couples face obstacles dealing with things like getting health coverage, because federal laws require marriage and so they are used as loopholes.  While civil unions in theory are equal to marriages, they are rarely thought of the same way and so they are rarely treated the same way.  I generally think that comparisons between the gay rights movement and the Civil Rights Movement are overstated, but here I think there is an important precedent: this country has already proven that a policy of separate but equal does not work.<br><br>On your second point: if I marry my boyfriend, and the government recognizes that marriage, how does that affect the church down the road?  They can continue to believe whatever they like about the two of us.  How is this imposing our beliefs on theirs?  This isn\'t a rhetorical question, I am genuinely clueless on how my hypothetical marriage would affect anyone but me, my husband, and whomever files our taxes at the IRS.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-3892120">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-3892120" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-3892120" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <span id="dsq-author-user-3892120">Michelle</span>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-3892120" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-3892120" class="dsq-comment-message">In response to <a href="http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/11/my-2-cents-on-prop-8-and-gay-marriage-a-call-for-strategic-activism/#comment-3887733" rel="nofollow">Val\'s comment below</a> asking<br><br><i>What can we do to level the playing field? That is what I want to do. I want equality for all. I will stand with you and fight the same as I did for Obama.<br><br>Equal rights for couples under civil unions. No discrimination for anyone under any circumstances and repeal DOMA.<br><br>What can I/we do? Where do we begin because I don\'t know. Educate me. A new JJP post regarding actionable steps on this matter would be appreciated.</i><br><br>Look at this, Val!<br><br>From our president-elect on <a href="http://www.change.gov/agenda/civil_rights_agenda/" rel="nofollow">his new site</a><br><br><blockquote>Support for the LGBT Community<br><br>The Obama-Biden Plan<br><br>* Expand Hate Crimes Statutes: In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported and made up more than 15 percent of such crimes. Barack Obama cosponsored legislation that would expand federal jurisdiction to include violent hate crimes perpetrated because of race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, or physical disability. As a state senator, Obama passed tough legislation that made hate crimes and conspiracy to commit them against the law.<br><br>* Fight Workplace Discrimination: Barack Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and believes that our anti-discrimination employment laws should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. While an increasing number of employers have extended benefits to their employees\' domestic partners, discrimination based on sexual orientation in the workplace occurs with no federal legal remedy. Obama also sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.<br><br>* Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples: Barack Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples legal rights and privileges equal to those of married couples. Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions. These rights and benefits include the right to assist a loved one in times of emergency, the right to equal health insurance and other employment benefits, and property rights.<br><br>* Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage: Barack Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment in 2006 which would have defined marriage as between a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried couples. ....[snip]<br> <br>* Expand Adoption Rights: Barack Obama believes that we must ensure adoption rights for all couples and individuals, regardless of their sexual orientation. He thinks that a child will benefit from a healthy and loving home, whether the parents are gay or not..... </blockquote><br><br>(there\'s more re: AIDS and a snipped piece of Don\'t Ask Don\'t Tell, etc but this is the stuff most relevant to the discussion IMO)<br><br>As I watch the "Gay Rights" movement flail around and play often racist ego-dramas, I realize I have almost no faith in their vision or organizing ability.<br><br>On the other hand, I have witnessed the organizing wisdom and strategic brilliance of Barack Obama since I first started paying attention to his campaign.<br><br>So Val, who is at the front of this movement for civil unions and non-discrimination? From what I see, the one articulating this stance is -- President-elect Obama.<br><br>If we are lucky, he will provide some sort of infrastructure for us to organize. It should be the movement\'s job ... but Val, IMO they are pretty much useless on this goal.<br><br>Here\'s my thinking: President-elect Obama has amazing political skills related to the collective that is this nation. He does not use words lightly nor does he speak of doing without a sense that it can be done, with sufficient involvement.<br><br>In an interview with the Advocate in the spring (can\'t find the link right now) Pres-elect (then candidate) Obama told the interviewer that he is not the leader of the GLBT movement, the people in the movement have to be.<br><br>Val: IMO they, that movement, they are failing. And in the meantime, I have witnessed President-elect Obama succeeding -- hugely -- when so many thought he could not.<br><br>So while I hate to cast him as a leader for the LGBT movement -- he\'s not -- I think he could well be a leader for what is the actual practical approach.  He has a feel for the pulse of this country that is .. uncanny, to me. he would not be suggesting this agenda if he didn\'t feel it as do-able.<br><br>The question to me them turns to how people who have energy for this can be part of getting this legislation passed. I got an email today from David Plouffe with a survey asking, among other things, what issues I was interested in volunteering for and how I want to be involved as volunteer/organizer as the movement moves forward.<br><br>Did you get one of those emails today? If so I would strongly encourage you to emphasize the energy you have for this work. If not ... maybe I can get a blank survey form URL for you.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 <li id="dsq-comment-4054491">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-header-4054491" class="dsq-comment-header">\
	 <cite id="dsq-cite-4054491" class="dsq-comment-cite">\
	 <a id="dsq-author-user-4054491" href="http://www.aeonity.com/adamson" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">adamson</a>\
	 </cite>\
	 </div>\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-body-4054491" class="dsq-comment-body">\
	 <div id="dsq-comment-message-4054491" class="dsq-comment-message">You\'re so right, of course.</div>\
	 </div>\
	 </li>\
	 </ul>\
';

(function() {
	
	





Dsq.Debug.profile(function() {
	if(Dsq.jsonData.request.page == 1 && Dsq.jsonData.request.is_initial_load) {
		Dsq.container.innerHTML = Dsq.Templates.header() + Dsq.container.innerHTML + Dsq.Templates.footer();
	}
	Dsq.$(Dsq.curPageId).innerHTML = Dsq.$(Dsq.curPageId).innerHTML.replace(Dsq.COMMENTS_RE, Dsq.CommentsHandler);
}); // Dsq.Debug.Profile

// HACK: Resetting cache because we're done with.
Dsq.Utils.gebiFromElementCollectionCache = null;


	
	
	var dsq_styleEl = document.getElementById(disqus_container_id);
	var dsq_anchorEl = document.getElementsByTagName('a')[0];
	
	Dsq.Thread.fc = Dsq.Utils.getStyle(dsq_styleEl, 'color');
	if(dsq_anchorEl) { Dsq.Thread.ac = Dsq.Utils.getStyle(dsq_anchorEl, 'color'); }
	Dsq.Thread.ff = Dsq.Utils.getStyle(dsq_styleEl, (Dsq.Utils.ie || window.opera ? 'fontFamily' : 'font-family'));
	// For Safari / Opera: strip quotes.
	Dsq.Thread.ff = Dsq.Thread.ff.replace(/['"]/g, '');
	Dsq.Thread.fc = encodeURIComponent(Dsq.Thread.fc);
	Dsq.Thread.ac = encodeURIComponent(Dsq.Thread.ac);
	Dsq.Thread.ff = encodeURIComponent(Dsq.Thread.ff);

	
	
	
	if(Dsq.$(Dsq.Templates.addPostContainer)) {
		// TODO: Check to see if theme uses postmessage.
		if (window.disqus_use_postmessage) {
			Dsq.frames['reply_0'] = new Dsq.ReplyFrame(Dsq.$(Dsq.Templates.textareaContainer));
			Dsq.frames['reply_0'].init(function() {
				// Use fallback iframe
				Dsq.$(Dsq.Templates.addPostContainer).innerHTML = '';
				var theme = (typeof disqus_frame_theme == 'undefined') ? 'default' : disqus_frame_theme;
				Dsq.Iframes.showReplyIframeInContainer(Dsq.$(Dsq.Templates.addPostContainer), null, {theme: theme});
				// if(Dsq.Utils.ie) { Dsq.Utils.fixIframesIE(); }
			});
		} else {
			// DEPRECATED
			Dsq.Iframes.showReplyIframeInContainer(Dsq.$('dsq-post-add'));
		}
	}

	
	

	
	if(document.location.hash != '') {
		document.location.hash = document.location.hash.substring(1);
	}

	Dsq.Popup.showCookieMsgs();

	
	if(document.location.search != '' && location.hash != '#disqus_thread') {
		var reply_id = Dsq.Utils.getRequestParams().dsq;
		if(reply_id) { document.location.hash = 'comment-' + reply_id; }
	}

	
	if((typeof OB_Script != 'undefined') && (typeof OB_versionNum != 'undefined')) {
		if(navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Firefox") != -1) {
			if(window.frames['dsq-reply-frame']) {
				window.frames['dsq-reply-frame'].location = Dsq.Urls.REPLY + (new Date()).getTime() + '&f=jackandjillpolitics&t=my_2_cents_on_prop_8_and_gay_marriage_a_call_for_strategic_activism&to_redirect=' + encodeURIComponent(window.location) + '&ifrs=' + encodeURIComponent(disqus_iframe_css);
			}
		}
	}

	if (Dsq.jsonData.integration.theme == 4) {
		if (Dsq.jsonData.realtime_enabled) {
			Dsq.Realtime.initialize();
		}
	}

	



	window.ExecuteWhen = (function () {
	var obj = {}
	
	// Private
	var running = false;
	var timer = null;
	var pending = [];
	var startTimer = function() {
		running = true;
		timer = setInterval(obj.heartBeat, 100);
	};
	var stopTimer = function() {
		running = false;
		clearInterval(timer);
	};
	
	// Public
	obj.add = function (condition, code) {
		pending.push([condition,code]);
		this.heartBeat(); //!
		if (!running) {
			startTimer();
		}
	};
	obj.heartBeat = function() {
		if (!pending.length) {
			stopTimer();
		}
		var newPending = [];
		for (var i=0; i<pending.length; i++) {
			var cond = pending[i][0];
			var code = pending[i][1];
			// FIXME: if cond or code throw an error, they never get removed from pending
			if (cond()){
				code();
			}
			else {
				newPending.push([cond, code]);
			}
		}
		pending = newPending;
	};
	return obj;
})();

// also used in embed_thread.js:
window.fbIsReady = function () {return window.FB && FB.init;};
// NOTE: This script gets executed again without threadEl
//       set when we are loaded again as the fbc_receiver.
//       In this case, we don't need the hidden container.

if(!window.FB || !FB.init) {
	if(window.Dsq && Dsq.container) {
		// container is not present when init.js is loaded from an xd-receiver iframe; in this case,
		// we don't need the FB_HiddenContainer anyway.
		var fbDiv = document.createElement('div');
		fbDiv.id = "FB_HiddenContainer";	// Required or else FeatureLoader will execute a document.write.
		fbDiv.style.position = 'absolute';	// This is intentionally not setting display to none as this breaks
		fbDiv.style.top = '-10000px';		// Flash in Safari.
		fbDiv.style.left = '-10000px';
		fbDiv.style.width = '0px';
		fbDiv.style.height = '0px';
		Dsq.container.appendChild(fbDiv);
	}
	var fbJS = document.createElement('script');
	fbJS.type = "text/javascript";
	fbJS.src = "http://static.ak.connect.facebook.com/js/api_lib/v0.4/FeatureLoader.js.php";
	document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(fbJS);

	ExecuteWhen.add(window.fbIsReady,
		function () {
			// HACK: This is a workaround FBC's single domain limitation by
			//		 allowing sites to create multiple forums with different
			//		 Facebook API keys.  This must be used in conjunction with
			//		 disqus_facebook_forum (see authenticateFacebook).
			var facebook_api_key = 'bd6a8bc56f8eb204984f34b6fefe228d';
			if (typeof disqus_facebook_api_key != 'undefined') {
				facebook_api_key = disqus_facebook_api_key;
			}

			FB.init(facebook_api_key, window.facebookXdReceiverPath || null,
				{fetchSignedPublicSessionData: true});
		});
}


	


if(typeof(disqus_callback) == 'function') {
	var callback_params = Dsq.Utils.getRequestParams()['dsq_cbp'] || null;

	// We don't care about any errors in third-party code
	try {
		disqus_callback(callback_params);
	} catch (x) {
		if (typeof(console) != 'undefined' && typeof(console.log) == 'function') {
			// But it would be nice to let developers know about them
			console.log(x);
		}
		// pass
	}

	// HACK: We don't know if the callback wraps our container, which may
	// possibly result in a new DOM element.
	Dsq.container = document.getElementById('dsq-content');
}

})();




