Jack and Jill Politics - Latest Comments in Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Ms.Martin — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:20:00 -0000

Rikyrah

There's a radio talk show host from Chicago on the CNN Rick on the Road Show explaining why the "elitist" tag applied to SBO was offensive to blacks.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

haale — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:34:00 -0000

http://www.ndu.edu/inss/Occ...

Here's a link to the paper

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Anonymous — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 21:09:00 -0000

The Miami Herald reports on a study at the National Defense University that it claims calls the war in Iraq a “major debacle” with the outcome in doubt. However, what the Miami Herald didn’t report was that the study looked at a specific time period and has little bearing on the current status of the conflict. The Herald's report is disputed by the author, John Collins.

Collins writes, "The Miami Herald story (”Pentagon Study: War is a ‘Debacle’ “) distorts the nature of and intent of my personal research project. It was not an NDU study, nor was it a Pentagon study. Indeed, the implication of the Herald story was that this study was mostly about current events. Such is not the case. It was mainly about the period 2002-04. The story also hypes a number of paragraphs, many of which are quoted out of context. The study does not “lay much of the blame” on Secretary Rumsfeld for problems in the conduct of the war, nor does it say that he “bypassed the Joint Chiefs of Staff.” It does not single out “Condoleeza Rice and Stephen Hadley” for criticism.

Here is a fair summary of my personal research, which formally is NDU INSS Occasional Paper 5, “Choosing War: The Decision to Invade Iraq and Its Aftermath.”

This study examines how the United States chose to go to war in Iraq, how its decision-making process functioned, and what can be done to improve that process. The central finding of this study is that U.S. efforts in Iraq were hobbled by a set of faulty assumptions, a flawed planning effort, and a continuing inability to create security conditions in Iraq that could have fostered meaningful advances in stabilization, reconstruction, and governance. With the best of intentions, the United States toppled a vile, dangerous regime but has been unable to replace it with a stable entity. Even allowing for progress under the Surge, the study insists that mistakes in the Iraq operation cry out in the mid- to long-term for improvements in the U.S. decision-making and policy execution systems.

The study recommends the development of a national planning charter, improving the qualifications of national security planners, streamlining policy execution in the field, improving military education, strengthening the Department of State and USAID, and reviewing the tangled legal authorities for complex contingencies. The study ends with a plea to improve alliance relations and to exercise caution in deciding to go to war."

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

haale — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:49:00 -0000

WASHINGTON — The war in Iraq has become "a major debacle" and the outcome "is in doubt" despite improvements in security from the buildup in U.S. forces, according to a highly critical study published Thursday by the Pentagon's premier military educational institute.

The report released by the National Defense University raises fresh doubts about President Bush's projections of a U.S. victory in Iraq just a week after Bush announced that he was suspending U.S. troop reductions.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

haale — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:24:00 -0000

This is from the "Winter Soldier Hearings" held in March, 2008 in Washington DC:

"We tried to comprehend the enormous scale of the so-called "collateral damage" in Iraq as speakers cited surveys that estimated about a million Iraqi civilians have died since the U.S. invasion, and that over four million Iraqis were forced from their homes. The speakers told of Iraqis, being without power and water, begging for food and fuel, and only wanting foreign troops and the 180,000 private contractors and mercenaries to leave so they can begin to rebuild their devastated country."

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Angela — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:21:00 -0000

Watch the Sunday morning gas bags tomorrow and see how they will spin things.....

Chuck Todd has acknowledged the intensity and passion of Sen. Obama's supporters after the ABC "debate" and how the Democratic party could be torn apart for ever.

I maintain this "force" (us) should be recognized by the super delegates. It is a reality.....!

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 19:00:00 -0000

craig,

What I truly want is to be able to believe that Obama is a independent thinker and a moderate politician.

Hillary is working to divide the party into the 'activists' or 'new dem party power base' vs. 'the common man' or 'old dem party power base.' She is using the unions to raise questions about Obama's radical associations and his self-proclaimed superior judgment, all under the guise of "this is what the Republicans will do."

I agree, it is up to the voters to decide the primaries, but the superdelegates will still be left to make the final call.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

D. — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:56:00 -0000

Unelectable, no. But as the success of the surge carries through the election, he either has to acknowledge it and its implications (that we're winning) or deny it and make himself blind to reality.

My money's on #2.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Craig Hickman — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:48:00 -0000

s.,

Apparently, that's what you hope will happen. That you still think most Americans are stupid enough to be duped yet again. That the Baby Boomer Battles still have cache in 2008.

CodePink co-hosted that fundraiser ages ago on the political calendar.

Bringing it up now is a Hail Mary.

Like I said, let's see who catches it.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:45:00 -0000

d,

I tend to agree.

Does this make him 'unelectable'?

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

D. — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:35:00 -0000

S,
Probably. The base (which-oddly enough-is what "al qaida" translates to) would kill him.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:34:00 -0000

craig,

I don't think these associations are a 'hail mary' but will be used to build a pile upon which to lay 'the last straw.'

Painting Obama into a far-left liberal corner will erode his claim to govern with independence, bipartisanship and moderation.

He will be seen as so beholden to the far-left, anti-war, move-on groups that his judgment and independence will be called into question.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Craig Hickman — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:26:00 -0000

I guess the Dreamworks partners, all of them Jewish, are also pro-terrorists because they hosted a fundraiser with the founder of Code Pink.

I guess Steven Spielberg will be making a movie about it anytime now.

I guess connecting him to terrorists (Ayers, Hamas) and terrorist "supporters" (CodePink) is the final Hail Mary.

Let's see who, if anyone, catches it.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:26:00 -0000

d,

If elected, even though exiting Iraq and not raising taxes are 'common sense' would the Congress and the base put so much pressure on Obama, that he would have no choice but to submit to their will?

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

D. — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:18:00 -0000

S,
Remember, you're talking about someone who preaches that he was "against the war from the start." that's so intricately tied to what his campaign's about that anything less than a complete withdrawal-regardless of the end results of such-will be seen a failure to the base. So on that issue, to suggest what you are loses him the nomination.

I don't think McCain uses either as attack points. Once you get past the rhetoric, both your points should be common sense.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 18:08:00 -0000

d,

So if it is true that Obama is making 2 promises he can't keep, leaving Iraq and raising taxes on the middle class, will McCain use this as a line of attack?

I would be more inclined to vote for Obama if he were to demonstrate independent judgment and come out and say, I would like to leave Iraq, but I must reserve the right to stay.

Also, the same for raising taxes. It doesn't make any sense to raise taxes in a recession. Plus, I wish he would acknowledge that raising the payroll and capital gains taxes affect many income earners in the $50,000 to $1000,000 range.

Perhaps he will move to the center after the nomination, as he has promised to be a moderate. I will be watching and listening.

As for Code Pink, just like Ayers this will bubble to the surface.

Hillary is already denouncing the 'activist base' and trying to bring moderate dems to her side.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

D. — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:47:00 -0000

S,
The democrats don't realize that the situation in Iraq is going to require a presence for the forseeable future. So when they get into office-after being swept in on antiwar sentiment-and they learn that lesson, it kills their standing with the base.

A lot of the representatives who were swept in in 06 on the same sentiment may well find themselves bounced out the door, for the same reason. And I'd love to run against Webb when he's up for reelection.

But if you notice, the Code Pink connection isn't even being heavily reported. And if you were to try to mention it to most of the Obamaists and the liberal media, they'd write you off.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:32:00 -0000

d,

Do you think this code pink bundler will make it more difficult for Obama to assert his independence from the base if the situation in Iraq requires us to stay?

He would be breaking his MAIN campaign promise and during the debate he reaffirmed his commitment to pulling out the troops regardless of what the generals say.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

haale — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:17:00 -0000

Anonymous and D,

McCain has an interview with Stephanopolous (sp?)tomorrow so we shall see...

And I'm sorry... no one is squeaky clean because "clean" is relative. Personally, associations with Code Pink is a plus in my book!

Great discussion guys/gals!

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:17:00 -0000

McCain has stated that he believe that Obama doen not sharethe extreme views of Rev Wright.

McCain said in an April 17 interview with Bloomberg TV,"Well, in the case of Reverend Wright, I have expressed in the past that I am sure that Senator Obama does not share the extremist statements that Reverend Wright made.

This is the same interview in which Obama distorted McCain's statements on the economy.

To read the entire interview, here's a link:

http://www.realclearpolitic...

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Anonymous — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 17:01:00 -0000

haale,

The focus is more on Wright because the truth is, voters have so little to go on with Obama. He is virtually a newcomer on the national political stage, thrust onto the scene by his speech a the last Democratic convention. His record in the Illinois State Senate and his record in the US Senate are thin, and highly partisan. This calls into question his ability to 'reach across the aisle' and to effect real 'change' in such a highly partisan political climate.

Lacking any evidence of working on any major political issue (ie judicial appointments, immigration, etc.) in the US Senate, those seeking to become more informed look to Illinois and the roots of his political career. Personal and professional affiliations are also examined.

As children we are often taught to choose our friends wisely. We are told that hanging with the 'wrong crowd' can get us into trouble.

So it is true in national, presidential politics. The quality and quantity of a candidate's political and personal relationships are used by many to determine the 'content of ones character' and the quality of their judgment.

McCain and Obama should be scrutinized for the length and depth of their religious affiliations. They should expect to be criticized when those associations are seen as being out of the mainstream by a majority of voters. Voters can decide if it its a big enough deal to them to disqualify either candidate from having ones vote, but a double standard should not be applied.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

D. — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:57:00 -0000

Haale,
Because everyone assumed that because Obama was a relative nobody before 2004, he didn't have the shadiness. He was a "safe" candidate.

But now that people have started looking into him since he's the "front-runner," all the dirt is coming to light. And I bet that Rev. Wright, Ayers, or the lady from CodePink who's a fundraiser for him aren't the least of it.

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

justice58 — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:51:00 -0000

"Bush was a drunk and a drug addict and ran several businesses into the ground...okay, this one doesn't prove my point. ; )
-----------------------------------

ahahahahahahahahahahaha

Too funny!

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

haale — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:40:00 -0000

Here's one source:

McCain has sought closer ties to the extreme religious right in recent years. The pastor McCain calls his "spiritual guide," Rod Parsley, believes America's founding mission is to destroy Islam, which he calls a "false religion." McCain sought the political support of right-wing preacher John Hagee, who believes Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment or gay rights and called the Catholic Church "the Antichrist" and a "false cult."

Hillary also has ties to a few unsavory characters as do most politicians. So the point is that these are none issues. Thomas Jefferson said a few unsavory things about Black people - do we ignore everything about him and banish him from our history books or do we focus on the positive.

I just wonder why there is so much focus on Barack's acquaintances? And especially when it is only two out of how many?

I used to work with a former Black Panther. So? Some of my favorite teachers and mentors were part of guerilla feminist group that defaced billboards in the 1980's. And?

Bush was a drunk and a drug addict and ran several businesses into the ground...okay, this one doesn't prove my point. ; )

Re: Friday Open Thread - TGIF…whew…

Ms.Martin — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 16:36:00 -0000

S

They can afford to - the poor and middle class working folks cannot.