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I don't know. I do know that it suggests that a lot of unprotected sex is taking place and it's opening a lot of people up to not only AIDS but other STDs. When you think about the number of people who end up with babies and their used condoms, how can you put that but faith in a plastic sheath?
It suggests that some else is at play.
This answer doesn't have anything to do with funding and research or the church. Nor does it have to do with condom distribution or lack thereof.
We all need to step back. It's time to be honest. The majority of us do not value long term monogamy and engage in sex liaisons with less meaning. This is ranges from the brother screwing dudes while he's locked up to the professional sister screwing some woman's husband at an out of town business meeting because she's not interested in a serious relationship to the woman getting knocked up by someone she knows damn well she has no future with and everything in-between.
Before you open your mouth to talk about how long your parents have been married and your grandparents have been married, wait. We're not talking about them. We're talking about you.
Are you in a monogamous relationship? Are you faithful? Is your partner faithful? You might be monogamous but is your partner? Are you sure? Do you know the HIV status of all your former lovers and their former lovers? What if he or she told you they had 10 partners, would you believe them? 30 partners? 60 partners? 100 partners? Do you think they kept in touch with all those people. Would you feel comfortable those question? If you can't, is that really your "partner"?
If you are in a monogamous relationship, do you use condom and spermicide, dental dams,etc without exception and the only time you wouldn't use it would be if you are attempting to conceive?
In this day and age, with waiting longer and longer to marry and the American culture, it's surprising that more people don't have HIV. I think part of the problem is that we don't recognize that every sexually active person is at risk. It's true, you've slept with everyone your former partners have. However, we have been lulled into believing that it's someone else fault. "She got AIDS because her ex-husband was a heroin addict." "She got AIDS because her husband was on the DL." "He was on the DL?"
No one wants to discuss that not having a sexual relationship with someone who you didn't know (and you can be in a relationship with someone not know them)
We will never be able to fight this epidemic until we make a cultural shift.
A lot of the issues confronting us are the result of a lack of morals, ethics and integrity.
And lying.
Religious leaders won't tell the truth.
Your HIV status is your responsibility.
Now what are you going to do about it?
http://www.metroteenaids.org
Oh and we should stop claiming folks die of lupus, cancer, etc...when we know it's AIDS related.
I have no problem with you arguing your message. My issue is when folks don't like certain things about certain religions they make it their life's mission to COMPLETELY take out ALL religions. Religion has given us some very ugly things over the years. It has also given us some very wonderful things over the years. The Civil Rights movement was rooted in the black church.
If your mission is to educate and enlighten people about a community they are misunderstanding, then I am totally with you. However, if your goal is to get everyone to agree with homosexuality, then that's delusional. The lack of understanding and acceptance of homosexuality is not all the fault of the church. There are plenty of cultures that are not very accepting of homosexuality that are neither Christian, nor American.
Like Truth Seeker, you should be careful not to attempt to put all the blame on the church, thus naively believing the elimination of the church means the elimination of the problem.
I want to learn...what cultures are hostile to homosexuality that are neither Christian or American?
The church was a mechanism for organizing and for disseminating information for the Civil Rights movement. It could be the same organizing force in the battle against HIV. HIV is as great a threat as institutionalized racism. However, their ideological bent is that virgin marriage and heterosexuality is the cure for all ills. Now, that is naive.
I do not disagree that some churches could do more to educate. And
that's all they can do. They can not make people act differently.
However, I do not think is their responsibility to tackle the problem
head on. There are a host of issues in the black community.
Unfortunately, this is just one of many. And there are churches that do
address this one. Some address violence. Many others address poverty. So
are trying to address the high out of wedlock births. Each church only
has so many resources they can devote to any given issue. Most black
churches are not doing it like TD Jakes and Creflo Dollar. They are
small ministries trying to address the needs of their people.
As far as other cultures go, the entire Middle East is largely religious
and do not share our 'liberal' views on homosexuality. In fact, in Saudi
Arabia homosexual acts are considered criminal under Sharia (Islamic
Law). The president of Iran went as far as to tell a group of students
at Columbia University that Iran does not have any homosexuals. It is
one thing to acknowledge and disagree. Many in that part of the world
will not even acknowledge that Gay people do exist. Remember Islam is
the fastest growing religion in the world. Also, in both China and India
homosexuality in general is frowned upon. And these two countries
represent the fast growing economies in the world. The areas of the
world represent growing cultural and global influence. So their
positions are not insignificant.
Lastly, I was not my intent to refer to Craig as delusional. I meant to
say the notion itself was, not him personally. I do not come onto
internet boards to try to offend people.
::
There's always a point in arguing prejudice, discrimination, and oppression.
Religion is the origin of homophobia.
Religion is the biggest perpetrator of homophobia.
I will always argue against that whether or not you think the church's message isn't going anywhere.
Neither is mine.
The message about homosexuality is not going anywhere. There is no point in even arguing that one. And black 'Christian' women are obviously having sex. Many are doing it outside of marriage. They do not need the church to 'make it acceptable' for them to do that. Why does the church need to make it acceptable to use a condom? They are having sex. Did pastor Do Good make that acceptable?
Also, you compared the church to the government. I am not sure if I agree with the comparison, but OK. The government has been putting money into educating people about the infection for years. The government pays for those 'free' condoms that we all have access to. AT BEST, it has helped the infection rate stabilize in the general population (but not significantly decrease). And it has done nothing for the black population. In fact, the rate has exploded among blacks. And blacks saw the same public service announcements about the disease that whites saw. If the government is struggling to get through to people then what impact is the church supposed to have? Seriously. I think you have an axe to grind with the black church. If so, then grind your axe. But you may be letting that get in the way of your ability to see the HIV/ AIDS problem for what it is.
"The message about homosexuality is not going anywhere. There is no point in even arguing that one."
For all blacks have been through, we don't have the luxury to completely write off any of our own..certainly not based on their sexual orientation. The pious routinely embrace criminals while vilifying gays.
Black Christian women are having sex because it's their biological imperative to do so. No amount of preaching will thwart the sex drive. The church can have an effect however, on the whether women & men protect themselves while having sex.
The government doesn't have the same clout with the black community as the church does. And, if Wright's sermons are any indication, the black church may be culpable in instilling distrust of government in it's congregation. In addition, most AA's have a natural distrust of white authoritarian institutions. If preaching can convince us that the government engineered HIV, then preaching can convince us to use condoms.
I sense that blacks speak a different "language" and tune out those public service announcements that are "foreign". They will listen if it comes from a respected pastor.
So, why don't you tell us what the HIV/Aids problem is from your perspective?
We will just have to agree to disagree regarding the church.
As far as my perspective goes I think the biggest reason for the
increase is the numbers of black men being recycled through the prison
system. I do think the so called down low thing plays a role, too.
However, I think people took that and ran with it. JL King wrote a book
about it and everyone went crazy. While is important to look at I still
think the number of black men who are 'on the down low' is miniscule
when compared to the number of brothers being locked up.
Growing up in one of LA's gang neighborhoods I know a lot of people who
have been in and out of prison. From the stories I have heard I am
convinced consensual sex and forced sex between men is the NORM in
prison, not the exception. An older brother I know confided in me and
told me his story of what happened to him while being locked down. He
was violated repeatedly against his will. It was heart breaking. Often
these men are ashamed of their experiences and never address being
violated.
One of the articles pointed out that the rate of HIV infections in
prison is higher than the outside population. When you add to the fact
that so many black men are rotating in and out of prison it is not
surprising we have an epidemic on our hands.
I won't even get into the down low thing because that has been beaten to
death.
So what can we do? First off we have to do more to keep our young men
out of incarceration. I know, that is a whole thread in and of itself.
We have to acknowledge that many of them have been violated. We have to
change the tenor of our conversations as black folk to make people feel
comfortable talking about their experiences. We must also address the
rarely talked about rate of depression in our community. But that is
another issue.
Churches can help with opening up dialogue. But remember, younger blacks
are not going to church the way our grandmothers did. And it is the
younger one that are most at risk.
If the church can not stop people from committing other 'sins' then what can they do to stop the spread of HIV? All they can do is try to educate, but the education is already out there. In fact, it has been out there for years. People simply have not heeded it. At the end of the day folks do what they want to do. HIV is not a Civil Rights issue for the church to organize marches around. It is a personal issue based on individual behavior. By trying to pin all or most of the blame on the church you are misrepresenting the nature of the problem.
Calling out TD Jakes or any other preacher will not stop another young black American from being infected.
"If the church can not stop people from committing other 'sins' then what can they do to stop the spread of HIV?"
I think they can tell women especially to use condoms, they can hand them out not because women don't have other means of getting condoms, but to make it acceptable for black, Christian women to use them. We know black people go to church a lot, particularly black women and I think HIV protection begins with us.
The church speaks on personal matters all the time. They draw the line on condom use because of religious ideology, while people die.
I call the preacher out because he grows fat on our suffering. He is a spokesperson to the black community and collects dollars from our people....it's almost a form of government. What happens when the government taxes but fails to meet the needs of the people?
As always.
:)
1) The statistics are for NEWLY reported cases - blacks were not being tested at the rate that they are now
2) We have the same sexual appetite and morals as other groups; we are a much smaller group
3) Blacks are concentrated in much fewer more urban and open areas in this country
4) We do have high recidivism rates
5) We had extended period of denial, and miss information, which added the delay in a number of new cases BEING REPORTED
Lastly, these numbers will continue to grow if black women shift responsibility & blame to supposed "DL" brothers. What I have found is the black women try to look for “signs” of a brother liking the same sex, and if the brother does not appear to be sneaking and living a DL lifestyle, then the women let there guard down.
This silliness feeds into the myth that HIV/AIDS is a homosexual disease. So, if the man is not bi-sexual she will be fine. This is sad and tragic game.
"I think also, that if a large number of black men are in prison where there might be rape, drug use, tattooing...then they go back to the community infected.”
I believe that those issues in a "relatively" small, highly concentrated population of people, like black folks, are the key to the numbers. It is not an abnormal promiscuity (rolling my eyes). It is a numbers game. And we are losing.
But, I still think that the cases are reported differently. i.e. Public health clinics versus private doctors. I could be way off, but do you know?
For example, I know that the abortion numbers are a lie, because private physicians do have to report abortions like the more publicly funded clinics where more black women tend to have those services performed.
I've only seen a couple posts make mention of the "DL - Down Low" mind-set. As a gay man I can assure all of you there are men - married - "straight" or any other way they choose to label themselves; of all ethnic origins out on the "DL". I am sure that a large percentage of those infected women are the result of their partners being on the "DL". In this day and age I still have problems understanding why people are not practicing "safe sex". It's not just about preventing pregnancy; it's a life and death matter. And why are they not being honest; honest with themselves and their partners.
It seems to me that the "Down Low" mentality is related to religious judgment. Men are afraid to come out as gay because the church has declared it sinful. They hide by having relationships with women to be acceptable to the community. Religion doesn't preach honesty...it preaches judgment.
As a Christian woman that also attends church, I completely agree. Most religions preach fear instead of love. This is odd, because the final commandment of Jesus Christ himself was --Galatians 5:14 “For all the law is fulfilled in ONE word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
The great prophet, Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. said so eloquently, that on the day of his eulogy "don't mention I have a Nobel Peace Prize…Tell them not to mention that I have three or four hundred other awards…I’d like somebody to mention that day, that Martin Luther King, Jr. tried to love somebody”. He knew.
If the “church” spent more time preaching love instead a fear and judgment, we would all be better off!!!!!
Sorry ya’ll, I had to get that off my chest.
thanks for your thoughtful response(s). And, I agree on all counts.
:)
I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree on this issue. The church has no interest in seeing anyone die of AIDS and other STD's. However, we are coming from two completely different ends of the spectrum. I believe that the Bilbe teaches God's way of doing things, and I also believe that the soul is ultimately more important than the body. The body perishes, but the soul lives throuout eternity.
Since you said that "there is no god's way of doing things," I don't believe we can come to any agreement about the purpose and mission of the Church. Its always good to talk with you, and I appreciate your perspective on this issue.
I missed one of your most important points.
"The church relishes punishment, and suffering strengthens it's position. It worships a punitive, impetuous god. "We told you so"."
I will agree with you that some churches and pastors emphasize the wrath and punitive side of God rather than the abundant love and everlasting mercy and grace of God. Not all churches are the same, and the Book of Revelations even talks about churches that have gone astray. You must have an undeniable experience with God in order to develop the kind of faith that will sustain you through present and future difficulties. Ask the Lord to come into your heart, and the Holy Spirit will lead you to a church that will guide you in the right direction.
;-)
is behind all the issues facing us. I am not referring to religion when I say spiritual lack.
condoms. Personally, I believe all the crisises facing us are more complex than we realize.
:)
What do you propose the Church do? True, one spouse can be faithful and the other unfaithful, but why is that the church's fault? You can get free condoms from the Health Dept. or any drug store, grocery store, or gas station bathroom. Why should the Church pass out condoms? Just because people don't practice abstinence until marriage or monogomy after marriage, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be taught. And after all, abstinence is the only 100% effective method of contraception. Monogomy in marriage is still more effective than any other type method of preventing sexually transmitted diseases. Even condoms are not effective, if not used.
The Church is supposed to deliver God's Word to the people in a practical and concrete way so that they can apply it to their daily lives. There are consequences to your choices, and yes, some choices can adversely affect other people. The church should teach God's way of doing things, and if people choose to do something else, then that's their choice, but God's way is still right, whether we like it or not.
I propose the church save lives instead of souls. Initially, I wasn't thinking it was the church's fault...but now, maybe it is their damned fault. Women drag their men to church, hoping that the word of god will inoculate them against the desire to stray. What the church doesn't say is that they can offer no guarantees on this front...the LOCK doesn't always work. The Word and marriage vows are less effective than condoms!
The church has tremendous clout, and they know - by the numbers - that people are having sex despite their vain pronouncements. What the church should do is say to the young women who come hoping to inoculate their men - "Whatever happens, promise me you will use a condom." What the church should do is act on LOVE.
You are wrong about abstinence being 100% effective contraception. The problem with that is that you first have to make abstinence 100% compliant.. 'ain't gonna happen. In fact, "abstinence only" policy is partially responsible for HIV & STD infection and death. Similar to what you said: Abstinence is not effective if not used.
The Church is dabbling in vanity. There is no "god's way of doing things" and punishment is not in our best interest.
AA's spend so much time in the church and consider it a lifeline. In my opinion, the black Christian church has failed it's flock. Clearly, their abundant messages of abstinence and wed-LOCK haven't been effective, because AA's are having copious quantities of unmarried, unprotected sex. Yet, the church refuses to be the lifeline that so many blacks think it is.
The black church refuses to speak realistically from the pulpit about sex and condoms. It refuses to say that marriage is not a sexually, safe haven. A respectable married lady can be infected by her husband.
Meanwhile on Black in America, TD Jakes waxes poetic of the good old days when girls were hidden away for being pregnant ....and scoffs mightily at the notion of handing out condoms in the church - while his flock dies. Testing - he says - is the key.
The church relishes punishment, and suffering strengthens it's position. It worships a punitive, impetuous god. "We told you so".
You see, Jakes cares deeply for your soul - a thing he has not seen, let alone made acquaintance with. It is this life, and your lustful, wayward, flesh-and-blood body that he and the Men Of God don't love deeply. They have declared war on the flesh.
May the gods save us from rigid ideology. May the gods rescue us from those who would love us to death.
And, may the TD's of the world burn in a non-existent hell.
The TD'S of the world are nto living in this world. If you get into any conversation with them about this. It starts and stops with homosexuals. Unfortunalty rather then accept that this is an epidemic in the community they ALL POINT THE FINGER..More often then not, its at the LGBT community and them alone...
A good gay friend of mine stopped going to church b/c when this very topic was brought up, it went to homosexuality and how it was a sin causing this..
HIV/AIDS is yet another tragedy that the Latino community shares w/ African-Americans.
And, therein lies the rub. For the Christian, in a choice between saving the soul or saving the body.....the body will always lose, because of your beliefs. This is why the flock dies.
There is no "god's way of doing things" because your god is supposed to be non-physical and exist in a world beyond "doing". "Doing" is a function of a physical world.
Nice chatting with you too, jdickenslaw.
AA's 2 and a half times more likely to die of Aids that white counterpart....
"AA's 2 and a half times more likely to die of Aids that white counterpart...."
Why do they think that is important?
All of this focus, on stating that HIV/AIDS is pretty much a black disease, can not be healthy.
This is only going to lead to everyone looking at black people and thnking that we all have HIV?AIDS. I don't understand why this line of reporting/talking or getting the word out is suppose to help.
Maybe I am being selfish.
I can say as blacks we have few defenses left...everybody's all up in our business. Sherri's talking to reporters and on the View about her abortions...They have us on "Black in America" exposing all our struggles, with a few triumphs sprinkled in. It certainly builds humility, but I thought of the time the rabbi was caught in the "To Catch a Predator" show on Dateline. Nobody went to his house and stuck a camera in his wife's face and humiliated her...not that I'm aware of anyway.
The silence about AIDS prevention in many Black churches is deafening.
And deadly.
enables AIDS to run rampant in us.
All those other social questions about cheating on partners can be worked out eventually if we can stay alive long enough to do it. This is a crisis, and churches need to realize the black community faces extinction if drastic measures are not taken.
As for the moral responsibility, black folks are inherently immoral, black women need to stop making bad choices and be celibate forever, blah, blah, blah...sorry i'm not buying that either. all i seem to be reading lately is how much we can judge and tear each other down instead of trying to find some collective solutions. I'm not buying that either.
That is my point. Everybody needs to wake the f up and start protecting themselves. This shit is pure propaganda. EVERYONE IS AT RISK AND EVERYONE SHOULD KNOW THEIR STATUS.
From the CDC
Race or Ethnicity Estimated # of AIDS Cases in 2006
Cumulative Estimated # of AIDS Cases, Through 2006*
Est #AIDS Case in 2006 -- Est # AIDS Cases through 2006
White, not Hispanic 10,929 394,024
Black, not Hispanic 17,960 409,982
Hispanic 6,907 161,505
Asian/Pacific Islander 519 7,951
American Indian/Ala ska Native 155 3,345
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basi...
What they don't say in the ads is that the alarm is due to the fact that black women were not on the radar before. And that is mostly due to not being tested. With all of the know your status campaigns in every hood (which is a good thing), the CDC is recenlty finding out that black women are infected at the rate that was uner reported before like 2000. We have not gone buck wild. Everyone just needs to know that their health is everything.
so much of all of this stuff has to do with the stigma surrounding mental illness. mentally ill people (depression included) act out sexually. sex is one easy, "affordable" way to self-medicate.