Jack and Jill Politics - Latest Comments in Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

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Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Tom Heneghan — Fri, 30 May 2008 17:50:00 -0000

If you’re interested in the issue of Obama, Islam and whether he might be a Muslim apostate, you might want to check out “Muslim scholar responds to ‘Sharia smear’ against Obama” -- http://blogs.reuters.com/fa... -- on the Reuters FaithWorld blog.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Craig Hickman — Tue, 13 May 2008 17:28:00 -0000

I still don't see what Michelle has said that is so "emasculating."

She's a Capricorn. She's pragmatic, practical, earthy, she leads, she's strong, she teaches, and she's powerful.

That's all.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Against Race Politics — Tue, 13 May 2008 11:25:00 -0000

Craig,

I never said I wouldn't vote for him b/c of Michelle - can't speak for others however my opinion as a STRONG BLACK WOMAN (who has had babies!) myself is that she does not come across in the right manner. She comes across actually as insecure but maybe making up for it with the strong persona. I think if you are strong and "tough" you can act that way but it's not necessary to hit others over the head with it so to speak(when you are secure).If she did then I really don't think the MSM would have all of the sound bites they have of her to be used against her husband.

I also never said that women emasculate men I said she comes across that way. I beleive that men emasculate themselves and blame it on women at times, personally.

Again, I am not trying to convince anyone else of fight anyone over this but this is MY opinion as a loyal BHO supporter.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

B-Serious — Tue, 13 May 2008 11:08:00 -0000

nquest,

Civil disobedience is a compromise. So is nonviolence.

MLK's nonviolent movement was a compromise. Turning the other cheek is a compromise.

You quote king's statement: "A man can't ride you unless your back is bent."

As if nonviolence in the face of violence is not "bending one's back," to assume the position one must in order to make the change they want to see.

A lot of people called King an accomodationist. They accused him of doing the very thing that particular quote warns against. Well, in the end, King's style got more accomplished. In fact, King's style has become a template for other movements over they years. He saw the bigger picture.

Was King an accomodationist? Judging by his goals, I say no. Yet many obviously felt that subjecting black men and women to violence was the definition of bending one's back to let the man ride on it.

Compromise (strategic compromise) is not a sign of weakness. It can be a sign of immense strength.

The Civil Rights Movement was built with a belief that "black" struggles must take on a more universal appeal if things were to change. That's strategic compromise.

That's what a minority group often does. It doesn't have the numbers on its side. Instead, it finds leverage to maximize the opportunity at hand.

As a practical matter, King and others realized that they could not change the wheels of power with a purely "black" message. But you find a way around the zero-sum equation. You make a win-win situation out of a win-lose situation. That's strategic compromise.

Thus, they transformed the concept of black liberation into wider, more universal, appeals of equality, humanity and spirituality. And yes, even symbolic politics has its place in moving the country forward.

That's mastering the game. That's finding a way to make the game work for you. It's beating the majority at it's own game. . . slowly, but surely, one step (one generation, even) at a time. That's understanding the forces at play and seizing the opportunity at hand.

The perfect storm surrounding the Civil Rights Movement presented a unique moment, which allowed King to repackage black rights in a more palatable manner and create a paradigmatic shift.

Civil rights was no longer a "black" issue for blacks to bear alone. The Civil Rights Movement was a coalition of black and white designed to pressure government into specific legislative action on generic matters like voting rights, education, equal protection and employment.

Malcolm didn't create that type of a coalition. Rev. Wright won't create that coalition.

That doesn't make them better or worse, just different. Their less concerned with universal appeal and more concerned with "speaking truth to power."

My point is you need both. Obama is building a coalition to affect change. . . just as King did. He's taking advantage of a perfect storm that is ripe for another paradigm shift.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Craig Hickman — Tue, 13 May 2008 10:32:00 -0000

Barack Obama was raised by strong women. His grandmother was the breadwinner between she and her husband. He married a strong woman. He knows who he is. Women don't "emasculate" men. That language itself is the sexist language of patriarchy and I don't like it. It's as if we are saying women should never show that they are stronger than men because men's egos are so fragile, they can't be upstaged by the "weaker" sex.

It's my belief, however, that women are much stronger than men.

Much.

And it comes down to the strength it takes to give birth.

If the electorate doesn't want to vote for Obama because his wife speaks her mind, then too bad for us.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Against Race Politics — Tue, 13 May 2008 10:11:00 -0000

Teacher,

I agree with you about Michelle O. She often comes across as emasculating towards her husband. Let me say/repeat (before I am attacked) I am a loyal BHO supporter but she has not been coming across very well to me. I suppose that is not truly the case as they do seem happy and she did do MUCH better in the interview with Caroline Kennedy.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Nquest — Tue, 13 May 2008 09:40:00 -0000

The Booker T. reference doesn't make sense. Neither does the idea of casting Barack Obama as a "black leader" the way B-Serious did. Ya'll done lost ya'll minds off in here.

Remember: Obama is not running for president of Black America. By the same token, he's not presenting himself as a Black leader with any specific intent on doing anything in particular for Black people per se. Taking his own statement and not some idea people want to project onto him, Barack Obama, the presidential candidate, sees something wrong with that kind of idea.

What kind of Tuskegee like project has Barack Obama talked about?

See, that's the silliness of the Booker T. reference. But it is rather illuminating. What's really funny is how folks are swinging at the wind, to use language that's already been used.

This "compromise" FRAME and the whole argument is an argument B-Serious et al are having with themselves. I'll refer back to MLK, another so-called "compromiser":

"A man can't ride you unless your back is bent."

Translation: Just assuming the position based on the assumption that that's what you have to do puts you at a position of disadvantage that's of your own making and have nothing to do with the game but rather with the role you assumed without respect to how the game has changed and what can be done to change it.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Ms.Martin — Tue, 13 May 2008 02:24:00 -0000

Interesting:

Apartheid Victims' U.S. Lawsuit To Proceed

High Court Can't Intervene Because 4 Justices Forced To Sit Out Case Over Apparent Conflicts

Comments 6

WASHINGTON, May 12, 2008

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

rikyrah — Tue, 13 May 2008 02:08:00 -0000

teacher,

someone up above linked to the story at HuffingtonPost. The girl got arrested at prom. Roland Martin also has it as a story at his blog at Essence.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

rikyrah — Tue, 13 May 2008 02:06:00 -0000

Obama Muslim Smear Changes Stripes

Sigh....

Top 10 Reasons Obama Beat Clinton

More than 20 Senators Say They'd Be Willing to be VP

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Teacher — Tue, 13 May 2008 02:02:00 -0000

@ B Serious-Thanx for the awesome post, Friend. Reading it has been the highlight of my day. I totally agree with the yin/yang analogy. In my experience, the yang speeches have often fired us up to do nothing. At this stage of my life I could pretty much skip it, and I am much more concerned with doing something practical. I would like us to have leadership (parlimentary moreso than charasmatic) that can organize us to effect practical change in our communities. My dream action is a collective boycott with 75-80% AA participation. Money ALWAYS talks. It is the god of our society. It's siamese twin is power.

@ Rikyrah-In what context are you talking about the clothing? Unless I missed something, you gave a response without posting the story. That said, it is often very challenging to find appropriate girl's clothing that your child also likes. The dept stores sell grown women's clothing in miniature. You can buy a size 6x shirt that says "Hottie," and little wedge heel sandals. Luckily, my daughter doesn't like that stuff, but neither is she willing to look like one of those FLDS girls. I saw an ad for Beyonce's mama's clothing line, House of Derion (or whatever-derriere) and that stuff looked pretty bad. It can be an issue, and a lot of people really don't know any better because they lack standards and discernment.

As for Obama and anger, the MSM has also been calling for him to be more forceful and exhibit more testosterone. He's darned if he do and darned if he don't. After the bowling fiasco, morning joe said he bowled like a little girl. It was tre' insulting. This is another aspect of america's collective unconscious. We glorify the thug, the mafia, John Wayne, Shaft or hillary. We like assholes and ass kickers. Thats why McCain polls so high sometimes even though most people claim to be against the war. Its a conundrum.

As for Michelle, I'm not a big fan of hers either (please, no hating). I have also wondered why she has said some of the things she has said, and I have wondered if she is mad at him and exacting revenge. I wasn't crazy about her saying things about his socks stinking, etc., and I wondered why I was supposed to care. To me, it was kinda like her saying, "He's not all that!" So I'm thinking, you can take the sister out of the hood, but....Why is she doing this? What is the point of saying "I love accessories. I'm married to one." She did an interview where she told someone he has 1 shot at this only, and that there would be no more chances. I guess I should assume that they had discussed it and come to a mutual agreement, but my initial impression was that she is some kind of dominatrix. That said, she did slam dunk for him in a tv appearance I saw with Caroline Kennedy. She was GREAT and redeemed herself with me. I just think that if she can't muster the self-control, she needs to say nothing.

They do appear to have the warmest union of all the candidates. I think Obama is a kind and decent person. He doesn't have the harshness or edginess of those of us raised in the continental 48. I've seen him be generally affectionate and huggy on the campaign trail.

I also feel sorry for Cindy McCain. She's married to the crypt keeper. Not only did he call her a cunt, he called her that in public. He probably wanted a more passive woman after being raised by his mother. What a shrew. She reminds me of hillary.

I don't want to see Hillbilly get any post or appointment. I want to see her flat ass go down in flames.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

rikyrah — Tue, 13 May 2008 01:08:00 -0000

the ink,

I saw Speed Raced this afternoon, and you had me thinking about Obama...LOL

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

rikyrah — Tue, 13 May 2008 01:07:00 -0000

WHy is the Governor of Minnesota telling his bedroom business with his wife on the radio?

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

rikyrah — Tue, 13 May 2008 00:55:00 -0000

Craig,

great links.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Craig Hickman — Mon, 12 May 2008 23:02:00 -0000

Sometimes we forget that Obama was raised in Hawaii and Indonesia and didn't see a whole lot of Black people.

It wasn't until he got to Chicago that he immersed himself in the Black Community. By then, he was grown.

You can take the boy out of the East, but you can't take the East out of the boy.

That is what those links above suggest.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Craig Hickman — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:58:00 -0000

For those of you who want to see more fight from Obama, I suggest these two diaries:

Mr. Cool's Intensity - a Post column on Obama

This one is particularly stunning. It's worth reading several times:

The Tao of Obama

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

rikyrah — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:04:00 -0000

The Malcolm vs. Martin comparison post was wonderful. Thank you.

I will only add this...for all the criticism of Booker T. Washington, he created a lasting legacy in the institution of Tuskegee University. How many Black people have created something that goes on well after their deaths? Think about the thousands of Our Community that have been and will continue to be educated and be able to use that education to lift themselves up because of what Booker T. ' The Compromiser' Washington did way back when?

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

rikyrah — Mon, 12 May 2008 22:02:00 -0000

ms. martin,

LOL

Go Michelle!

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

haale — Mon, 12 May 2008 20:45:00 -0000

B-serious,

Great post!

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Ms.Martin — Mon, 12 May 2008 19:52:00 -0000

Michelle Bernard just said that if she were Obama, she would never ask Hillary to be er Veep.

The other two are saying that she needs the white vote.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Nquest — Mon, 12 May 2008 19:46:00 -0000

Thus, from a black perspective, "Yes we can" is fine as an aspiration so long as we don't sacrifice "unapologetically/unashamedly black."

That would be the exact thing I would question and you can save that "master the game" rhetoric.

Policy and politics is all about compromise...

The question is how much you and I are willing to compromise.

That's the very question Barack Obama's chosen statements/behavior begs.

There's a time and place for everything.

There's never a time to front like Obama did.

Wright's voice is important.

Important to whom?

don't get sucked into a chest-thumping contest

Funny how Obama is never addressed or admonished in that manner. Again... Divine Love Does Not Ask Family To Choose Between Family Members.

You will note that it was Malcolm X who chose to get MLK's back even as MLK talked about how "wrong" Malcolm X was in the same kind of paternalistic and dismissive way Obama has regarded Rev. Wright. So these lectures you're giving are misdirected.

He reached across the table to contextualize black anger.

He misrepresented it while privileging White Resentment in the process. That's objective analysis vs. "be mindful of the game" (relevance??) and "Black self-affirmation" (relevance??) rhetoric.

Wright was inviting people to question his motives.

Question them then but none of that make Obama motive-question free. Like I said, I don't do myths.

Like King, Obama will not end all racism.

Dude, you done bumped your damn head. Like the supportive facts you insist Wright should have had, I'm still looking for the reasons why you've used all this rhetoric to address me. The very idea of putting either MLK and especially Obama in the same sentense as "end (all) racism" is as hilarious as it is dumbfounding.

Really? What is all this about? First, know, that I asked you not a single thing about what you think about Black Nationalism. So I don't understand all the wasted breath. What the hell is your point? Who the hell do you think you're talking to? Why the hell do you think any of the stuff you've said, most of it superfluous rhetoric, is relevant?

What does any of it have to do with what I've said? Not what you think I said or what you think will make a point to me. What I said?

Personally, I draw the line at black identity.

Whatever that means. But it's clear you're dealing with your impression vs. what Obama actually said:

"...when you start focusing so much on the plight of the historically oppressed that you lose sight of what we have in common, that it overrides everything else, that we’re not concerned about the struggles of others, because we’re looking at things only through a particular lens..."

That, my friend, is not only dishonest (Obama claimed he didn't "see" it (the very explicit Afrocentric lens) as a member) but it is "sacrificing" what is called "unapologetically/unashamedly black."

Obama decided to go there, all on his own. His pronouncements there stand at odds with what he said before:

"...at the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion’s den...

Those stories — of survival, and freedom, and hope — became our story, my story...

Our trials and triumphs became at once unique and universal, black and more than black; in chronicling our journey, the stories and songs gave us a means to reclaim memories that we didn’t need to feel shame about…memories that all people might study and cherish..."

But let's really deal with this whole "game" playing, compromising thing. Campaign Hillary and the media readily point out how Obama has a supposed problem with attracting (winning) amounts of White working-class voters, some of whom presumably just won't vote for him because he is Black and he's lecturing Black people via Rev. Wright about seeing things through selfish lens?

Gone are the days of the EMPATHY DEFICIT rhetoric (Obama's term) which, by definition, says that there is a problem with somebody's lens. Notice how the language changes...

Throughout the whole "bitter-gate" ordeal, Obama never talked about how working class Whites, e.g., failed to see what they have in common with the very people they have "antipathy" for. Instead of flexing the way he did when he charged a Black woman with "scapegoating" (Nevada debate) he had that White Privilege thing working as he went out of his way to paint working-class Whites as "victims." He did the same thing in his race speech.

legitimized White Backlash.

There's a problem when Obama gets animated and is quick to denounce a Black person for "scapegoating" but went out of his way to paint working-class Whites as "victims"

Which brings me to another important point:

Obama stuck to his guns during "bitter-gate", insisted there was nothing wrong with his statement and didn't pay any additional price for sticking to his guns. So this mythology about "game" playing, etc., etc. needs some examination.

And since we won't to invoke MLK:

"A man can't ride you unless your back is bent."

That's what I have to say about all this willingness to play "the game." With that type of attitude... with those types of excuses... one has to be careful about getting played and going above and beyond what it called for in order to play the game.

Trust, I'm with you nquest.

You're with me how?? Stop trying to FRAME my position when you don't know the half...

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

N. Mahana — Mon, 12 May 2008 18:05:00 -0000

haha you all are quite cranky today...except for B-serious!

Great post!!!!

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Nquest — Mon, 12 May 2008 17:52:00 -0000

nquest, I understand your anger.

Ummm... No you don't. You can't understand something I have not expressed. FRAME your own perspective. Don't try to frame mine.

Re: Monday Open Thread – How was the weekend?

Anonymous — Mon, 12 May 2008 17:35:00 -0000

I enjoy a good [written debate] too, truthseeker, unfortunately I haven't had one today but I am headed over to MDD so there is a good chance I'll get one.