Jack and Jill Politics - Latest Comments in Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

msmartin — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 23:21:00 -0000

He is also ignoring how these Acts have effected how laws can and will be interpreted that affect every day Americans.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Bison — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 15:29:46 -0000

There will be other jobs. What were they doing for a living before the war?

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

PTCruiser — Sat, 05 Jul 2008 13:25:10 -0000

Angela,

Thanks for your thoughtful response. The issue for me and others is not Obama's intelligence or political astuteness. We understand that success in politics is a process of straining for symmetry, i.e., trying to bring irregular halves together. Obama, his advisors, supporters among the pundit class and in the electorate want to frame the controversy about his reversal on FISA as being indicative of our political naivete or cultish left ideology. Nothing could be further from the truth. The issue is about Obama's reversal of position and our concern for the continuing infringement and erosion of our Constitutional protections as citizens of a democratic republic.

We are not comforted or reassured by promises that Obama can more successfully address these concerns once he is elected president. The reality is that once he or anybody is elected president there is no need and seldom, if ever, the desire to address issues that the president and the president's advisors would prefer not to revisit. The press of new and evolving issues and the reelection campaign is what invariably occupies their agenda.

How the Republicans may or not attempt to describe Obama is a legitimate concern. The Republicans, however, are going to scream that Obama is too liberal even if evidence is uncovered that he has been secretly a member of the John Birch Society since his days at Occidental College. The Republicans' view of Obama cannot seriously be offered as an excuse to justify his reversing his position on FISA. Obama and his supporters can try but I can hear the opening bars of Ray Charles' great song "I've News for You" playing in the background. Their story just don't sound true.

David Gergen is quite correct in declaring that Obama will be held to a higher standard than Obama but Gergen was not referring to Obama's supporters or people who will vote for Obama when he made this statement. Those of us who fall into the latter two categories but who object to his current position on FISA are most emphatically not holding him to a higher standard. We are insisting that he adhere to the standards that he swore to uphold last year before he secured the nomination. Our concerns are reasonable, appropriate and keeping in the tradition of protest and dissent that the Bill of Rights was written to protect.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

CraigHickman — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 19:21:45 -0000

It may not be relevant, I didn't know you were a journalist, but even still, I was curious who your choice for the presidency was.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

GreenLadyHere — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 18:09:32 -0000

AMEN!!! Nice observation!

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Michelle — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:36:43 -0000

I am very amused by the weird seemingly random replies from some machine of Jack's in this discussion.

I'm currently reading a scifi book that includes AI (Artificial intelligence) characters and maybe that is why I am smiling so hard about this. Jack: your machine has decided to join the discussion! And it's funny!

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Angela1 — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:14:38 -0000

Hi Craig;
thought I answered ......maybe not....anyway, yes that is the article.
Angela

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Angela1 — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 16:04:06 -0000

Thanks for the correction, how could I forget FDR was elected 4 times!
Guess I'm getting old!!

I was speaking to Obama's political smartness more than his overall IQ.
Also, I recognize the 24/7 news cycle that Obama has to contend with now vs
what was in place in FDR's time. FDR didn't have to respond to viral
emails and his base lodging instant complaints on a website which makes me
wonder if those "thousands" of attacks on Obama are all part of his base as
the pundits claim or are republicans helping to fuel the fires (i.e. just as
republicans voted for Clinton to create chaos in the primaries).

In bringing up FDR I was trying to remind people that you can make
compromises to get elected and afterwards and still have a successful
Presidency that addresses problems for the greater good of all Americans.
Not to mention that one of Obama's claims is that he can work with both
sides of the aisle and how does he do that by camping out with the far left?

The Republicans are trying to frame him as too liberal and out of the
mainstream. Because of Obama's ethnicity we shouldn't forget he's already
got that to continuously handle. I'm concerned that some think Obama has a
lot more leeway in how he presents himself because he doesn't. David
Gerson said that Obama will be held to a higher standard than McCain.

Angela

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Coby_D — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 15:22:21 -0000

I own "Why We Fight," as well as "No End In Sight." Both great movies, and fair to their respective issues.

However, we're stuck with the military-industrial complex. It's not going anywhere. Hell, what would we do without it? Make weapons/weapon systems on an "as needed" basis?

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

PTCruiser — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 14:03:30 -0000

The issue is not about Obama's intelligence. BTW, FDR was elected 4 times and any criticisms he received from his base was extremely mild in fact and in comparison to those who felt he was a traitor to his and their class.

FDR's policies did not do very much to improve the aggregate lot of black Americans because of the deals and compromises he struck with southern senators and representatives. In exchange for their support, FDR allowed them to control the implementation of various programs and policies in ways that largely excluded blacks. See, for example, Ira Katznelson's book "When Affirmative Action Was White."

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

msmartin — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:53:22 -0000

Thanks Bruce,

I understand what the JD and the Telecoms did and I even understand why so many want immunity for the telecoms, I understand the crimes that occurred and who was responsible.

What I don't know is the language of FISA or the proposed changes to the Act and what that will mean. I understand that there is immunity from civil prosecution but not criminal prosecution.

Seriously though, will one or two or even three men be able to right this wrong when so many of the participants are in positions of power or had power used as a sword against them. Power is not in words, rather in actions. Barack could vote against the legislation and remain in a position where he has no real control over how FISA is used or he can compromise now and exercise his authority in a far different manner than Bush has.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Coby_D — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:49:06 -0000

I wouldn't consider the media his base.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

msmartin — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:36:45 -0000

I wasn't gone, just pissed. When I heard him make the responsibility statements again (which still pissed me off) in response to criticism, I knew he meant it from his heart and character and that was good enough for me. In fact, it was my ability to see truth in him that attracted me to him and the strong resignation to the issue that he displayed reminded me of that. As I said, I never disagreed with what he said....well you guys know.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

CraigHickman — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:36:07 -0000

At least Barack has a base.

I think John McCain better worry about his base.

Does he even have a base outside of the media at this point?

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Angela1 — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:35:36 -0000

Hi Craig;
Yes, that is the John Dean article I referenced.

Angela

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

CraigHickman — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:29:47 -0000

Is this the article, angela1?

Barack Obama and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act Amendments: In Pledging to Work to Remove Retroactive Immunity for FISA Violations, What Kind of Action Is Obama Contemplating?

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

msmartin — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:23:32 -0000

I wasn't gone just in disagreement. When I heard him say it again in response to criticism, I knew he meant it from his heart and character and that was good enough for me. As I said, I never

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Angela1 — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:22:47 -0000

Please read John Dean on Obama and FISA.......writ.news.findlaw.com. Dean makes some excellent points regarding both.

I'm thinking Obama is smarter than we give him credit. And a reminder, that the only president to be elected 3 times was FDR and from what I read he managed to be criticized alot by his base but he also accomplished the most for middle class Americans........and he ran as a "change agent."

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

msmartin — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:18:18 -0000

Thank you.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

msmartin — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 12:07:44 -0000

Yes they do. With the growth of an empire, there is also the growth of desire to conquer it.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Bruce Dixon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:58:57 -0000

I don't see how my personal choice for president is relevant to this discussion, Craig. Suffice it to say that I am not campaigning or consulting for any of the presidential candidates. For the most part, I am a journalist and my job is to research the facts and tell the truth as I find it without fear or favor. A journalists's job is to provide others with the facts they need to make up their minds. I don't see how declaring for a candidate would assist me in performing that role at this time.
When I was consulting and/or campaigning for a candidate you can bet that I might tell you anything it took to get that candidate elected. But that's not the hat I am wearing this season, or in this discussion.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Bruce Dixon — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:43:03 -0000

Prosecution is not off the table but the evidence is

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

PTCruiser — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:41:12 -0000

Oh! You're talking about JFK. Well, the Bay of Pigs incident taught him to take the pronouncements of the CIA and the military with several grains of salt. And the Cuban missile crisis certainly taught him that many of his generals, e.g. Curtis LeMay, were a little crazy and he resisted their pleas and those of some of his civilian advisors to escalate our involvement in Vietnam.

I still think that Eisenhower's critique was more open and pointed. Kennedy's experiences made him more wary of the geopolitical advice given him by the civilian intelligence agencies and the Pentagon. Nonetheless, he still bought into overthrowing the South Vietnamese government in order to achieve U.S. objectives.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Coby_D — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:38:12 -0000

The centerpiece of Obama's Iraq policy, as listed in his Blueprint for Change, is a 16 month timeline for the withdrawal of all combat troops.

You can add all the modifiers you want, but to this day, that policy remains unchanged. Hell, it's the only policy of his I can quote verbatim.

My question is that when he has to modify that timeline-which I think will happen soon-what will happen to his base, which is already pissed about FISA.

Re: Obama Responds to FISA Critics

Val2 — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:25:47 -0000

D. Obama always said he would consult with the experts and pulling
out would be contigent on the circumstances on the ground
at the current time. But we would leave as expeditiously and carefully as possible.

Nothing is new on his stance. Google it or YouTube it.