47 comments

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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  While I do think that Clark's point about McCain not having any real EXECUTIVE military experience was valid, I think that he went to far in the soundbyte department. That "..getting shot down" line compeletely overtook his point about mccain's experience and Obama had to distance himself.
  
  What's sad is this whole stupid thing about Clark completely overshadwoed what I think was a great speech by Obama today. Many on the netroots are too busy "dissing" Obama to realize what a great speech it was. If not for this whole Clark/McCain hoopla, the speech would have been more well receieved on it's own merits. Now it will only be analyzed based on its inference to "POW -gate"
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  I'm beginning to believe that Clark's comments are an intentional distraction for Barack's campaign. I don't want to believe it, but I do. Clark is still all about Hillary Clinton.
  
  I agree that "POW-Gate" overshadows this great address from Barack. And while what Clark said is absolutely true, it's terrible, terrible politics.
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  icebergslim

  1 year ago

  I agree, Craig.
  
  In fact was arguing with some idiots at dkos about this.
  
  I won't totally put it in the "Clinton distraction" but I will say this, it was not helpful
  
  I don't disagree with what Clark said, it was how it was said. We gain NOTHING attacking a war hero and this is what McCain is, whether we like it or not. I am former military and attacking one's record is just not done.
  
  Attack McCain on his shameless record, which I am working on a diary for talking points about McCain. McCain has too much shit in his baggage, to attack his record. I mean the man was a POW, nuff said on that.
  
  Lastly, the London Telegraph did not help Bill Clinton's image and I do believe there is some truth in it. Now the MSM is touting a phone conversation BC had with Obama today. Bill know he either get on the bus or be left behind with history not too kind to him.
  
  We will see how this all plays out.
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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  I was over at dkos too, and all the Obam throws Clark under the bus business pissed me off.
  
  I am new to the netroots, so maybe all of the type of second-guessing is just par for the course, but I'm gonna take a break from dkos and other liberal blogs 'til after the holiday. All the "drama" was giving me a headache. So maybe a little vay-kay will refresh me. I'm gonna donae to Obama tonight, then break time here I come.
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  blksista

  1 year ago

  I get tired of Obama backtracking when a surrogate starts really cutting the McBush BS. He can't have it both ways. Attack and then back track? The point is to attack, attack, ATTACK.
  
  The real deal is that McBush was a lousy pilot and officer. Getting shot down ISN'T a prerequisite for high office. It doesn't entitle you, but it does show how you would react under stress. Like JFK, for instance. Getting our men and women in and out of a situation without many casualties is. Saving people's lives. Not showboating.
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  Webb

  1 year ago

  So what does being a POW teach you? It teaches you how to endure torture. Now, McCain wants to teach America how to endure atleast FOUR more years of Bush-style torture: high-ass gas prices, dumb-ass wars extended, and economic malaise...__CK that.
  
  Time 4 CHANGE We Can Believe In.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  Maybe they're playing good cop/bad cop.
  
  I don't know what to think anymore.
  
  But I'm certain I want Barack to win. The fact that McCain's got some "Truth Squad" out there to defend what they did to Kerry in 2004 pisses me off much more than anything Clark or Barack might be doing.
  
  Politics has always been vicious. This election is no different.
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  IotaNet

  1 year ago

  What you must remember is that America is NOT READY to hear/see a Black man speak forcefully about uncomfortable issues. If we're not being totally measured, moderately-spoken, and non-threatening, we're either angry or arrogant.
  
  One of the reaons Barack is so measured and moderated in his words is that he undertands this. If he started calling out Bush or McCain the way Clark did, he'd immediately be labeled "ANGRY" or "IRRATIONAL." (I'm reminded of the intro of the Public Enemy cut, "Bring The Noise" where the voiceover says, "Too Black -- Too Strong." )
  
  This is the deal and Barack gets it. We need to understand it as well.
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  Booky

  1 year ago

  I'm with you blksista! Obama needs to stand up and be man. It's the media!
  Campbell Brown is on right now saying the Obama campaign is trying to swiftboat a decorated POW.
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  evita

  1 year ago

  I think the issue was the guy's lack of diplomacy. The truth can be delivered all kinds of ways... up your booty hole or to your face. Dude went up the poop shoot. I can see why Barack Obama wanted to distance himself from that guy's comments. Presented another way, his point would have been better received. People like sugar on shit.
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  evita

  1 year ago

  Patriotism is a huge generational issue. There is a big subset of moronic Americans who believe that patriotism is parades on the 4th, flag pins, and jello. I'm really interested in seeing how some of the bottom feeders are going to piss on Obama's truth telling.
  
  I think it is NUTS how so man Americans think that the US is leading the globe on issues like healthcare, education, and employment.
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  Miss_Opinion

  1 year ago

  Is it Obama's responsibility to agree with what alleged surrogates say about an opponent? Clark and Obama aren't one in the same and they differ on how they get things done and view the issues. It's really unfair to assume that because you agree with Clark, Obama would do the same.
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  AnthonyMason2k6

  1 year ago

  Huh, and of course, the Obama camp didnt disappoint! They went and threw Wes Clark under the bus! What did WC said that was sooooooo wrong and needed to be denounce? Will BO ever take a controversial stand? Boy, these last three weeks have revealed a whole lot of things about BO (reversing on public financing, his postring before AIPAC, his approval of the SC's 2nd Amendment case, the fact that he's now in favor of the School of the Americas (please google it), his horrendous and barbaric support for the Death Penalty). This new Barack?? I barely knew you!
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  heartsandflowers

  1 year ago

  You can forget about any politician trying to run a campaign in either party going up against AIPAC. And Wes Clarke is a Hillary surrogate. He has no excuse for dissing McCain about his service record. It is an unspoken code of honor amongst military personnel that you do NOT do that! Obama has a no drama policy and Gen Clarke's speech is a lot of drama.
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  AnthonyMason2k6

  1 year ago

  And I understand that. But when the main theme of your campaign is "CHANGE" you must live up to that. I mean, before being in the senate he spoke about the humanity of the Palestinians; then last year he spoke about NOT letting the Likud party dictate american's relations to israel to now, the brother is farther to the right of Bill Kristol when it comes to Israel. He even called Israel's security "Sacrosant"; Not even Bush talks like that! How did he get there? Not only that, but he has a Pro-Walmart man running his economic team, he's got the same awful clinton people on foreign policy (including Madeline "I dont care about Iraqi children" Albright), he's changed his position on FISA, public campaign finance, his Cuba/Latin America speech is more American imperialism (I'm beginning to call it Manifest Destiny with a Black face on it), and that's without mentioning his reaction to the two latest supreme court decision (the death penalty one and the 2nd ammendment one), and the fact that his Iraq withdraw plan leaves all the Blackwater mercenaries intact!
  
  I understand that certain things must be done in order to achieve power, but at what price? By the time he'll get there we wont know him or what he stands for!
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  I've read this comment in about 10 other places.
  
  Copy and pasting is so, well, unoriginal.
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  purplehawk

  1 year ago

  I get so frustrated with the GOP on the issue of patriotism. To them, it's little more than a wedge issue and they wield it with the same cynicism as Hermann Goering:
  
  "Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
  
  Goering said that at Nuremberg. And didn't Bush use the entire spiel to sell Iraq?
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  Miss_Opinion

  1 year ago

  Will BO ever take a controversial stand?---
  
  Look at his stance on abortion and inclusive ideas on homosexuals. Clearly he HAS taken a controversal stance. I have to love the arrogance of some of Obama's supporters. If he doesn't speak like you and share your views on a given issue he's weak. Could it be, and this is a shot in the dark, simply independent? A leader?
  
  If you want a yes man, someone that will ALWAYS parrot back to you what you believe and think you've got the wrong man.
  
  If Obama loses this election it will be to those that cry and complain about the wrong things. The line I read seems to be "he should attack!" "He needs to be as ruthless as they are." If that's the kind of logic you're looking for why aren't you a Clinton supporter.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  I agree with the crux of this. Which is why the netroots are getting on my nerves right about now.
  
  Freedom of expression is the core fundamental right of a free society, but the anit-Obama-on-FISA group that has emerged on Barack's website is utterly disappointed.
  
  I'm beginning to see that so many of the folks who support him really have no idea how to get this man elected.
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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  I'm with you on this as well. It's really becoming stupid. It just helps to reinforce the parody of the "echo chamber" of the netroots that's out there.
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  heartsandflowers

  1 year ago

  Well many in LGBT are not pleased with Obama for not coming out in support of the CA marriage amendment AND for stating he believes marriage is between a man and a woman.
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  Michelle

  1 year ago

  I'm a lesbian and I'm fine with where he stands on this. So is my girlfriend. We know he's a heterosexual politician running for President . We also feel that marriage is not THE only LGBT issue. We don't represent anyone but ourselves of course.
  
  I have a story about my own experience with his campaign on LGBT stuff, where I was really impressed; when I have more time someday maybe I'll post it on an open thread. It's not about this specifically (marriage) but more about how they run things overall.
  
  Anyway, I'm lately feeling pretty tired of people expecting Senator Obama to be exactly what they/we think he should be for us.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  Not this one. I have no problem with Barack's stance on the CA marriage amendment, precisely because he supports the California Supreme Court decision.
  
  He also wants to repeal DOMA in its entirety and offer federal benefits, including immigration benefits, to same-sex couples in committed unions.
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  AnthonyMason2k6

  1 year ago

  I dont care about narrow social issues! I care about ending the war; I care about the returning the rule of law in this country. Now, are you saying that his position on FISA is principled? Come on!
  
  Obviously, he's better than McCain or even Hillary, but he's proving to be more of the same.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  Tweety didn't lead with this story tonight. Not the melodrama OR Barack's speech.
  
  This leads me to believe that all of it, Clark's comments the day before Barack's patriotism speech, was a bad cop/good cop tactic to dominate a news cycle.
  
  But since the MSM hasn't picked it up, they might be burying it because they don't want people to see the underlying truth in Clark's statement.
  
  Hmmmm.....
  
  Let's see where this goes in the MSM (CNN is a part of it, but it's Fox Lite, so I don't watch it at all!) in the next few days.
  
  Barack's speech needs some coverage and it's not getting much.
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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  I actually think that hardball was recorded. It didn't have the usual "LIVE" icon on screen.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  Ah. That might be true.
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  Town

  1 year ago

  How do we know that Wesley Clark is an Obama surrogate/supporter? Shoot, I could get on the news and call McCain a withered, confused old man who has no business answering the phone at 3am, doesn't mean I'm an Obama surrogate though.
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  kenyaw

  1 year ago

  That was funny Town/
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  Booky

  1 year ago

  It's called a red herring lamh. Instead of focusing on the substance of what Clark said they are focusing on the messenger.
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  icebergslim

  1 year ago

  Does anyone know about this bogus, scapegoat organization national black republican association? They have this ad out and expect it to be floated along to "those that think alike". I am close to believe these are 'white racists' that put this together, but I may be wrong.
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCaGlj52MCY&eurl=
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  RonnieB

  1 year ago

  As usual, Barack delivers. And make no mistake; had he not taken the 10 or 20 seconds to distance himself from Wesley Clark's comments, the MSM would have ignored the speech altogether.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  You might be right. Wesley Clark will be on Verdict tonight and Good Morning America tomorrow.
  
  Bad cop/Good Cop might be exactly what Barack planned.
  
  Let's see how this plays out over the next few newscycles.
  
  Politics is vicious.
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  Booky

  1 year ago

  I'm behind Wes Clark all the way. He told the truth. Just like Reverend Wright told the truth. The media and the GOP can't handle the truth. The media has turned John McCain into some kind of fictionalized "War Hero". The real war hero's are our sons and daughters returning from Iraq, not to mention those that lost life and limb for a lie. The media and the right wing can dish it out (John Kerry) but they can't take it. F&^K the media. If Obama keeps on he's going to prove Reverend Wright right (pun intended) about him being a politician and saying whatever it takes to be elected. Obama better start standing up to the right wing bullies and the media or he is going to piss off his base.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  I'm part of his base and he hasn't pissed me off.
  
  Barack IS a politician. He's not a savior, or a messiah, or a perfect man.
  
  He IS trying to get elected President, though. And unless or until he sells his soul, he better do whatever he has to do to give him the best chance to be elected. Let people be pissed off. But they better get over and vote for him because at the end of the day, he's better than John McCain.
  
  Period.
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  Maylonie

  1 year ago

  Thank you CraigHickman. You say it for me. Yes, vote for Barack because at the end of the day he's so much better than McCain.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  Clark is on right now defending himself. I think after watching this second showing and his reference to Barack as a true patriot, RonnieB is on point.
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  Have Mercy. Dan Abrams has Tara Wall and Tucker on to discuss this issue.
  
  I'm going to throw up now.
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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  Isn't Tara Wall the repub who called Michelle Obama an "racist ingrate", or "angry harridan"?
  
  No wait, sorry that was (?) Massie
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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  Oh,
  
  I hear Clark did pretty well on Verdict
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  He did. And since he said he spoke with Barack with a smirk on his face, defending Barack anyway, told us Barck was a true patriot, and then went right back to standing by his remarks, I no longer need to flip-flop and am now convinced that this is nothing but a good old fashioned good cop/bad cop strategy.
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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  Well, I am officially done with dkos.
  
  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/30/205348/...
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  CraigHickman

  1 year ago

  I've decided to be a voice in the wildnerness over there. The melodrama is very petty. But it might also be destructive. So, I'm speaking out against it.
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  lamh32

  1 year ago

  Good for you. I've decided that I don't need all that drama in my life. I'll stick to blogs/post with a least a modicum of respectfulness by the site host, here for example. I may even post a comment on 2 on dkos if I just can't help myself, but it will no longer be a "destination" of mine. Ya know what I mean.
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  AnthonyMason2k6

  1 year ago

  All I am saying is, let's not act like the Republicans with Bush! If BO does the wrong thing he must catch the heat for it. Just saying that "hey What are you going to do? Vote McCain" isnt enough to motivate folks. Barack has to be more than "be scared of John McCain."
  
  is that too much to ask?
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  rikyrah

  1 year ago

  Democrats always pick the wrong stuff. Clark was a perfect choice to use against McCain to flip the script on the ' Who actually IS an elitist' memo.
  Clark could have hit McCain about being the son and grandson of ADMIRALS, all the while using his public position to vote AGAINST measures that would help the average, everyday soldier who doesn't come from such a privileged socio-economic background. Clark was the perfect one to point out that McCain LIED about supporting the new GI Bill, when he a) fought it at every turn, and b) wouldn't even cast a vote on it. Clark would have been a good attack dog on those points...not this one. I don't even argue about that. Yes,he pimped the POW thing to get into the Senate; I'm more pissed about him voting AGAINST the common soldier, all the while hiding behind the POW/Uber Patriot flag.
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  icebergslim

  1 year ago

  You are correct here, rikyrah.
  
  Initially, I was not all that keen about Clark touting this. Why? Because in the end you don't get votes for being perceived going after a war hero, and we know that is how the MSM will and is playing this out.
  
  But there was nothing incorrect in what Clark stated. He simply said in a nutshell, "that McCain does not have the executive experience in national security." He outlined the examples and explained that Obama is not running on this platform, as McCain is for experience in this. And in the end, neither Obama or McCain have executive experience in national security. Neither had to make the decision to flip the switch and drop the bomb, or tell a bunch of generals and admirals what to do.
  
  I think that Clark is being Obama's attack dog. Though, Obama denouced "how the statement" was made, he did not throw Clark under the bus. There is a diary up on kos explaining it, here.
  
  I now put Clark in the top three, for VP.
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