-
Website
http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/ -
Original page
http://www.jackandjillpolitics.com/2008/01/reaction-to-nh-primary-get-the-patron-and-tell-em-that-its-on/ -
Subscribe
All Comments -
Community
-
-
Top Commenters
-
Popular Threads
12-11.
It's semantics, I know, but if Bush can take the presidency over semantics, then certainly we're allowed to claim a small victory in New Hampshire.
Attribute it to tears, the Bradley Effect, or whatever you need to. In the end, NH chose stability and experience over vagueness and inexperience.
In the end, NH voters went into their private booths and searched their private thoughts and views, and voted against Clinton by a whopping 61%. Hardly a vote for stability and experience.
And if the Obama campaign needs to build in a 3-5% Bradley Affect margin, so be it. Strong, courageous, and unapologetic Black men have always had to be better than their white counterparts. Obama's smart enough to know that, and will prepare accordingly.
So congratulations on defeating the Uppity Audacious One in lilly white New Hampshire. Enjoy it.
So while IA and NH do have too much influence, this nomination will be decided by black voters in South Carolina. That is a good thing.
That said, I don't think it's clear that Obama will win SC. The New Hampshire result is enough to raise the saliency of the "false hope," bandwagon again. That may dissuade some blacks from voting for him.
Also, there are two things of note: Obama's gone back to his 2004 Senate primary "Yes we can," theme. And this election is precisely the election he is prepared for. After his Bobby Rush experience, and even trailing among blacks from a time in his Senate race, Obama learned how to appeal to both blacks and whites. He now has to put those skills together to win South Carolina and the nomination.
Further, if Clinton had lost, she would've skipped SC. Now she can't. So while winning appears great, it forces her to play in a state that is inherently favorable to Obama.
This loss should only compell us to fight harder. Black voters in SC have the real power in this election, and we have to spread that message to them and not allow them to give into their cynicism.
I wasn't surprised by the loss. U had it right the first time...damn those white folks...this is Bradley all the way.
I said on my blog a couple of days ago that there's a strong possibility he'd lose and it would be close but that's okay 'cause next was SC.
Also I HOPE that Black folk don't take the defeatis mentality and say "Oh see I knew he couldn't win." and don't vote.
Hopefully this galvinizes Black folk. ANd Lord knows I hope Black women don't fall for the okie doke and back Hilary.
I prefer Edwards over Obama but I WILL NOT vote for Clinton. Damnit this country needs something different and Bush-Clinton-Clinton-Bush-Bush-Clinton ain't it.
Clinton's not my candidate. Though the enemy of my enemy has her usefulness.
I think that not only is SC going to be the make or break for Obama, it's going to be where a lot of African Americans are going to be forced into a position of whether to go with what they really want in a candidate, or to go with the traditional "groupthink."
I'm certain that if Obama doesn't win in SC, it will be because black people didn't "wake up and get it," or something else not having to do with any of the issues at hand.
(1) too many uninformed Black voters who support the Hillary Clinton of the currently ineffective, spineless and entrenched Democratic Party;
(2) too many Black voters who are so intellectually impressed with themselves that they support the status quo of the GOP;
(3) too few Black voters who have the where-with-all to support Obama for the long haul.
Which now makes me wonder, on top of everything else: do we really want as president someone that has the potential to be this divisive?
I'm gonna be on some Linda Blair type ish...really.
Black folks need to get over their Clinton love and I'm gonna pimp slap some Black preachers for endorsing Clinton and not Obama.
If I wasn't so damn broke I'd go volunteer in SC. That's how outright pissed I am at the thought of Black folk losing their damn mind behind HC.
Couple of points:
1. I love the blog.
2. I don't think this was the Bradley Effect. Obama performed well, people just underestimated Hilary. In fact I think some people (not you) are using the Bradley to discourage black vote with the idea being . . . the dream is over, so don't both voting for him.
3. I kind of like Barack losing NH because now it puts the call squarely in black folks hands. It's a moment Dr. King would have dreamed off . . . black people with a legitimate shot at creating a black candidate. I think if you say a generational divide with the Obama vote before . . . you are really about to see it now with older blacks going for Clinton and the younger ones for Obama
Winning NH may have been the worst thing that the Clintons could do...all of the dirty, desperate tactics they used to win NH will haunt them for the rest of this campaign and have already begun to undermine their vision of an illustrious "Clinton Legacy."
The Clintons have vacillated between the arrogance and fear of defeat--neither of which should be traits for the next President of the United States (let alone democratic nominee).
It's interesting that you said "fear of defeat" shouldn't be a trait for the democratic candidates.
Yet, these same candidates are ALL advocating defeat in the War on Terror.
Isn't that a little concerning? That the same people you think shouldn't show a fear of losing would gladly guide this country into a defeat that could spell the end of our way of life?
I read something very interesting on another board that I think applies very well here. :
Back in 1984, when Jesse made the stupid hymietown remark, as a poli-sci student, I saw Jews across the ideological spectrum from Irving Howe of the socialist "Dissent" magazine to the moderate-Democratic Martin Peretz of the "New Republic" to Norman Podhoretz of the right-wing "Commentary" all join forces to crush him.
Yet, both Clintons start race-baiting with Obama and you do not see handkerchief headed (and mostly older) Democratic Negroes not cry foul. So, if nothing else, Obama's presence will help make a distinction between intelligent black people, both parties, and the House Negroes of both Parties, the ones who say nothing when the racism of BOTH the Dems (Clinton remarks) and GOP (Ron Paul's various race hating editorials) are exposed because these same House Negroes are looking for handouts and "walking around money."
Hopefully this galvinizes Black folk. ANd Lord knows I hope Black women don't fall for the okie doke and back Hilary.
Which black women are you talking about JJ? Because most of the younger, educated black women I know of are for Obama, or even Edwards. Hillary Clinton’s primary black supporters whether they are male or female are OLDER and dare I say more pessimistic. More likely to give Obama that “who does this youngblood think he is? He think he white! He ain't better than me!” vibe rather than support him. They are also more likely to suffer from hankerchief head-itis AKA the “massa’s been so good to us syndrome”.
Adam said: 3. I kind of like Barack losing NH because now it puts the call squarely in black folks hands. It's a moment Dr. King would have dreamed off . . . black people with a legitimate shot at creating a black candidate. I think if you say a generational divide with the Obama vote before . . . you are really about to see it now with older blacks going for Clinton and the younger ones for Obama
I agree. I think black folks in South Carolina will never live it down if Obama loses, point blank. SC is the only state where black folks are going to make a decisive difference with a black candidate at stake. If they vote against him, it will say to the rest of the country that blacks don't think blacks are equipped to run the country - or much of anything.
Whenever you hear about the blacks in SC the candidates are trying to appeal to, they are older, deeply religious and largely found in beauty parlors and churches. Where are the educated, younger progressive professionals? I hate that “Mama and ‘nem” could possibly “fall for the okey doke” and potentially mess it up for the rest of us. Do you think that Latinos would do that to Bill Richardson if it came down to it? Hell to the naw! What about a Jewish progressive candidate (not a divisive figure like Joe Lieberman) were in the running. Do you think Jews - even those who disagreed on some ideological points - would seriously vote against a Jew that had a serious shot at the White House? I don't.
South Carolina... don't blow it!
This isn't a referendum on "blackness." It's not the civil rights fight of the 1960's. It's not a fight over whether we should still be enslaved or not. This is simply a decision of who is the most qualified to lead-not guide-this country.
And no one has the right to question the "down-ness" of someone who doesn't vote for Obama.
I shouldn't have to remind folk that this is America, and that there STILL exists racial divisions through NO FAULT of our own. A qualified Black man without social, moral, or criminal baggage would dare seek ascension to the most powerful office in the world ... yes, it's going to create divisions. Some folk might think that kind of audacity requires some degree of head-scratchin', shoe-shinin' contrition, but not me. And not Obama.
This is a referendum on Blackness AND the status quo. I damnit don't want another Clinton in Office.
I actually am more in line with Edwards ideologically but I don't discount the signifigance of a Black man in office either.
@Anon
Does South Carolina primary voters skew young or old? "cause early polls in the state showed Black women favoring Clinton over Obama.
So those would be the Black women I don't want falling for the okie doke.
"And no one has the right to question the "down-ness" of someone who doesn't vote for Obama."
I disagree. :)
Ok, I will give you that anyone who prefers a Clinton style of presidency to an Obama one should vote for her.
But look, the Clinton's have been playing black folks strings like a cello for a long time.
Bill became a savior to black folks just because he was the first president in a while that didn't seem to be totally disgusted by black people.
When the heat was put on the Clinton's by Obama, Barack just become another "undercover Muslim, potential drug dealing" black man.
The Clinton's don't love black people. They need them. Big difference
Having established that:
Ronnie-realize that there are some blacks (some of who read/contribute to this blog) who are/would be fully ready to go to war if another black said ANYTHING bad about Obama. That sort of racial division is no one's fault BUT our own. We can't lay that blame anywhere else.
JJ-Please explain to me how I'm any less "black" if I'm not voting for Obama. I don't discount the significance of a black man as president either-I just don't think that this one is the right one.
God help us on the day where there's TWO black candidates.
Ronnie-realize that there are some blacks (some of who read/contribute to this blog) who are/would be fully ready to go to war if another black said ANYTHING bad about Obama. That sort of racial division is no one's fault BUT our own.
Oh, now you're blaming Obama's Black supporters? Earlier you posited: "on top of everything else: do we really want as president someone that has the potential to be this divisive?" suggesting that Obama engendered division.
Which is it?
The hell it isn't. Nothing is "simple" about this election. Wait until you see those GOP ads with Bill Clinton on Charlie Rose calling Barack Obama "inexperienced" among other things. The same types of insults that were thrown his way when he ran for president in 1992. Hillary's primary "experience" has been being married to Bill Clinton. Where would she be without that?
I totally co-sign with JJ, Adam and Kimmy, especially on this:
I think that the dirtiness of the Clinton camp will have to force black people who are concerned for the future of Black America, to come off the sidelines and get involved in order for Obama to win the South Carolina primary.
"This divisive" among black people.
Sorry, not biting. We're either criticized for being monolithic, or criticized for being "divisive". Either way, Black voters' critics are pleased when we can be condemned, under-served, and under-represented.
The person says that there are lots of votes in the low country, and that they have disproportionate influence in the low country. The person says that all candidates have ignored the low country vote. That people usually ignore them, but that the most successful state politicians don't. The person mentions that the military vote and the veterans vote are important--even within the Democratic Party--around Charleston. This is the older, and as far as this person can tell, "undecided" vote.
The person also believes that their own personal philosophy of "personal responsibility, service , and action on a person to person level," is what really makes a difference in our society.
From this, it sounds like South Carolina is fertile ground, but the deal isn't closed.
Obama's personality matches that. The challenge is for his supporters to do so as well. We have a right to be pissed, but I think that we need to realize that you slay the dragon with a smile...
And if it's not a "simple" election, that's only because elements of society have sought to complicate it. This update of the "paper bag test" is evidence of that; it's an element that someone, somewhere threw in the midst of all the issues to stir up the pot. Spun another way, it's fearmongering; a scare tactic.
I wonder what our reaction would be were the nominees, say, Colin Powell in 2000 and Obama. How would "blackness" be defined then?
My concern is that some Black voters in SC are so conditioned to believe he can't win, that the New Hampshire loss will feed into that.
As I said many months ago when folk were asking if Barack was "Black enough", it may very well be Black voters who doom his candidacy.
This makes for a more competetive campaign and has the potential to be a "history-making event" in terms of youth, urban, minority and immigrant voeter registration and trunout.
Now its a freaking race!!
Obama '08
As for me, I'm taking on the role of extremist, ultra-liberal fanatic for *O*...even if my ideas are not extreme.
Hillary used language such as "false hopes," "taking the country backwards," and "some of us are wrong."
I'd rather have a President with false hopes than no hope at all.
If people were smart about history, they would realize that Hillary flunked on HealthCare '93 and Bill caused Democrats to lose the Congress in 1994 (THE FIRST TIME IN 40 YEARS). The only reason Bill won re-election was because the Republicans put up the erectily-dysfunctional Bob Dole against him.
The Clintons set the country on a trajectory that led to George W. Bush...Their arrogance astounds me.
What makes people think that this time will be any different?
After last night, I would bet that there are going to be more hecklers popping up at the Clinton speeches...just watch. Don't let her come to Atlanta.
...By the way, Shirley Franklin strongly endorsed Obama today in contrast to Misters Young and Lewis.
Mrs. Clinton’s other comments regarding Martin Luther King and Lyndon Baines Johnson was sad and ridiculous at the same time. Her husband, who at one time I voted twice for and had respect for, has lost me with his "the biggest fairy tale I’ve ever seen" quote. Sadly, this gentleman will go to South Carolina and use his political skills to seduce African American voters who will fall for his shtick like they always will and help his wife win there.
She and her husband will use "plantation politics" ("But Massa Bill and Miz Hillary have been good to us!") to win in South Carolina.
Or maybe that will be pissed that this was "stolen" from him? I'm not finding many Black women who were sympathetic to her tears. In fact, just the opposite. They see it for the ploy it was.
You are so right! Obama has to send the message that you can undue what was done in New Hampshire. Black folks have all the power in this election right now!
SC is a very beautiful state, but black folks there are not together.Call me a hater if you want, but it's true.
I'm not saying Obama won't win SC, but we must not be complacent and realize that because of the mass ignorance of the black electorate there, he could very much lose it. People have to get down there and inform our people, and quick. If you can volunteer, do it. If you can speak to people on the ground or over the phone, do it! But we can't get caught by suprise because I truly believe, if it's left to SC and they have a chance to elevate a real brotha or Missy Ann Clinton, massa's wife, well, they're gonna chose massa's wife.
There's no Atlanta in SC. There's no big city with a massive amount of educated and informed and influential black folk. Let's keep this in mind.
I'm telling y'all, DO NOT think that, if it comes down to SC, that black people will go for Barack. Y'all are crazy and don't understand just how uneducated we are in SC. I'm dead serious. I've lived in SC and have seen the mentality up close. These are the people who get happy in church when the Clintons show up and Hillary puts on her mammy accent. They love it. They eat that stuff up. They don't want to hear all that intellectual self-empowerment mumbo jumbo Obama is spittin'. That might work in Charleston, but elsewhere, it won't.
So I'm saying, if you have any way to get to SC or have an impact on educated the black electorate in SC, DO IT. Because if you all think Obama has this wrapped up, even if he wins Nevada, they'll use their power to pick Clinton in a NY minute, mark my words.
Excellent point. I think it's safe to say that they're not reading blogs like Jack and Jill either - if they even know how to use email.
I think phone calls from relatable black volunteers (they will be able to tell over the phone) and visits by black volunteers will be crucial.
Another great point. I think any Black Obama volunteers have to be careful about that when talking to the voters
Yet, dont be fooled. Barack faces the same trials of "intellectuall liberation" in the ghettos of Los Angeles, the backwaters of Appalachia, and the subburbs of Scotsdale as he has on the college campuses.
His campaign doesn't have a race prolem. This isn't a race issue. America needs to reject the myth promulgated by the white, liberal machine, not just black folks.
But hey, speaking of saying what you really mean:
How about more "actually admitting to a conflict over your love for a popular music that crosses traditional lines of good taste, rather than simply trashing it on its PMRC-stamped face."
Like Barack did.
My source described the low country as having these demographics the retired high ranking military officers, established black wealth, and black retirees that moved to Hilton Head...but also the people that clean the hotels and wait tables. In short, it's a relatively diverse socioeconomic population there.
Further, I'll note that many people described as "uneducated" here have high school diplomas, work regular middle class jobs, etc. Even among the people who were poorly educated and may only be slightly literate, the kind of nonsense found on this thread doesn't do anything to help. Those of us that support Obama want undereducated blacks to vote for him. Attacking a group that you want to vote for you is always bad campaign strategy.
Thanks for the compliment about the slaying the dragon with a smile line; the dragon is multi-faceted and incarnates cynicism, despair, and fear of the unknown. An optimistic smile helps with that too. That's why we all must smile and stop blaming people before its lost. Barack's right--yes we can. But we only can if we believe, and if we project that belief to others. I plan on smiling a lot over the next 4 weeks. I hope you will join me in doing so.
Since the slave mentality is in effect, what should we, those of us outside of SC, do to bring our uninformed brethren in South Carolina out of their blind-faith devotion to the Clintons. What should we do? Should we submit commentaries to newspapers about the problem of blind loyalty of blacks to the Clintons? Should the black bloggers, who are tired of Clintons' use of black voters, unite and devote their blogs to address every attack from Clinton camp against Obama (basically become an informal attack team for Obama)? Remember how Kerry failed to launch any counterattacks against the Swift Boat veterans? We must not allow Obama to be swiftboated by the Clintons. Should every black blogger take every famous black Clinton supporter (like Magic Johnson and Andrew Young), who will be paraded throughout SC on the orders of the Clintons, to task for their opposition to Obama.
I know it sounds like I'm attacking those of us in SC, but what I'm saying it true. And yes, those "uneducated" folk may have some kind of diploma, but with no degree, it is more likely that they aren't paying attention to the details of this race and it is more likely that they don't even UNDERSTAND the details of this race. Now, I'd lived in SC for years, and I don't know anything about this diverse group of black folk with money your friend told you about. That's simply not true. I live in Charleston, the hub of black success in SC, and that's barely upper middle class for the most part.
People need to understand, folks that are gonna be voting in the SC primary looooove them some Bill Clinton. These are folks who still buy into that "First Black President" bullcrap. These are folks who don't watch Charlie Rose and don't know Bill all but called brotha Barack a "boy" while his neck turned red from the jealousy and hatred coarsing through his body. These folks don't watch the news if it ain't local and don't know about the racial smear job the Clintons did on Obama in New Hampshire last month. They still see Bill Clinton as many black folks did on the day he was elected. Happy and completely satisfied to be thrown a bone by a white president. It doesn't matter one bit what he did or didn't do for black americans. All that matters to black folks with low self esteem, is to be appreciated by whites, patted on the head. Bill Clinton has patted them on the head and they loved it. And i truly believe, if it comes down to make or break for SC to solidify a Feb. 5 sweep, I'm telling you, don't be suprised if they hand the nomination to Hillary.
I'm not trying to talk down about my own, but y'all need to be realistic and understand that we are not talking about black folks in Atlanta, Houston, Chicago, NYC, or any other metro area with millions of educated and informed and influential black folks who can't be woowed by a mammny accent and a saxophone solo.
I know it sounds harsh, but it's true. When it comes to black folk in SC, do not underestimate the love for Bill Clinton and the ingnorance of the electorate.
Those of us in the know need to get down there now and inform folks, or I'm telling you, Billary will indeed take SC.
in the meantime. some quick reactions cause i'm late for my show!
- I think NH will be good for O and for the nation that was swept into somehow thinking this BLACK MAN became inevitable overnight. better for this to happen now, early in the process
- Yall are right about how crucial SC and black folks are. I want a call to arms for black travelers, phonebankers and freedom riders to spread the word
@ProblemWithCaring, we agree so much when you wrote about how this is now an officially competitive campaign.
as for the title of my post, yes i love hip hop, even stuff that ain't saying much. I'm still a human being who likes a beat, a hook and a party. Our last hip hop exchange on this blog was way too long and I still didn't get my point across clearly if you think i hate all rap lyrics. I can love rap and hip hop and still find flavors of it damaging to my people. Anyway, glad we're on the same page on this post.
ok fam, i am overwhelmed at the community we have here. gotta roll now.
peace. and stay tuned. cause IT'S ON!!!
"House Negroes, um no, we're not stuck in some sort of 1940s time warp around here."
The source also noted the black establishment down state. Retired business people, military officers, etc., in Hilton Head. And said that the down state community is economically diverse.
Again, even giving the appearance of attacking people that you want to be part of a campaign is just bad strategy. Afterwards do whatever you want, but Obama hasn't lost yet. I'm just noting it's extraordinarily bad strategy to bash the most crucial group of swing voters--and yes blacks are the swing voters in this election. For the first time in my life (I'm 28), blacks are the ones with the political power. That alone is amazing.
I think that the uniformed services present in down state South Carolina create at least a black working class, if not a black middle class. And I also think that uniformed service personnel (I live close to a base) are paying extremely close attention to this election.
i think you've explained yourself enough on the issue. thanks for having a go at it one more time.
believe it or not, i feel you.
awww, i feel you too dawg, but you not getting my bud light.
seriously. nice to leave this on a positive tip. i'm off!