Jack and Jill Politics - Latest Comments in The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

evita — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:08:00 -0000

Jelana-

I don't disagree with you, but that was the lesson that white girls learned. People of color learned a different lesson from this moment in history.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Nita — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 09:05:00 -0000

The way I look at it, focusing on South Carolina takes power away from blacks ... and whites. Refusing to recognize the significance of Iowa takes power away from whites, and blacks.

Focusing on South Carolina is an attempt at turning blacks into selfish people who only care about themselves and personal attacks towards them -- top down.

To focus on Iowa would be to acknowledge how Obama touched ordinary whites, and how ordinary whites changed blacks' minds -- bottom up.

Some people don't want to give up top-down thinking, the old politics , the old identity divisions. They want to make smaller white support of Obama and make larger black support of Obama, so that ultimately the Clintons fuck-ups become not only center stage but a simple matter of speaking in a way in which they were misunderstood. That's what the insistence on South Carolina means to me.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

jelana — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:43:00 -0000

Evita,

The only change I would make to your statement is that RACE always trumps

gender. WHITE is actually the key.

They are hiding behind feminism and sexism but the fact that they are WHITE means they are entitled. We all deserve an apology but that will not be forthcoming any time in the near future.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

justice58 — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 00:59:00 -0000

evita evita,

You rock!

hahahahahahahahaha

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Anonymous — Mon, 09 Jun 2008 00:12:00 -0000

"For you people who are saying that we should get over it, I have to say respectfully. FUCK YOU. My silence for so long allowed you to believe you can dominate me. Our country is where it is because of the countless number of times you completely disregarded my people's needs, dreams, and will. True feminism invokes dialogue but you didn’t want to dialogue- you wanted a Hillary Clinton fight."

I really feel sorry for you. God bless you lady.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

evita — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 22:33:00 -0000

I haven't read all of the posts in their entirety so I'll just add my two cents and you can do with it what you will.

As a person of color and participant of this year's democratic party's election I am left feeling injured. Many people are not going to care about this at all and many people will know what I mean. If you don't care about this then stop reading now and go about your life.

I got engaged in this election early on and have donated time, money, and effort to Obama's campaign. I did this for the similar reasons that Clinton's supporters did. I was running towards change, disheartened by the state of our nation, war, and the failing economy. I am truly invested in living in a nation I am proud of. So I know what Michelle was talking about- screw the pomp and circumstance. Again, I wasn't working against Hillary, I was working for Barrack. Like many I was familiar with the Clinton's brand and their great track of effort working for people of color. [In retrospect, I'll need to look into this some more because it is hard to believe now...]

The media attention on Hillary and the hurt and disappointment of her constituency has left me angry. Most of the pain that I feel is what her process did to the election, to our nominee, and to the country. Hillary Clinton and her surrogates injected racial and gender divisiveness intentionally and in the worst possible ways. The high road was a path never taken by the Clinton campaign, as it was the low road they expected to win on. Once it was clear that Obama was not going to misstep, at least not as often as Hillary Clinton, they endeavored to throw salt into national wounds by pitting men against women, whites against everyone else. She had a number of times to affirm her values on race and racism, and she resisted showing her leadership- because the open wound helped her favorables. If anyone should have shown leadership, it was SHE with all of her experience. She the role model. She a former first lady. She a Senator. What did the little girls learn after watching this primary? Gender trumps race, and apparently no one experiences these issues as much as white women. Puhlease.

Sexism helped her in numerous ways. What would have happened if Obama had that tearful moment in New Hampshire? Our sexist cultural norms would have everyone call him soft and not capable of leading a nation. Through the same sexist lens Clinton Feminists saw that as a moment where her truth emerged- an enlightened, benevolent leader. Yeah I didn't see her screaming HEY THAT WAS SEXIST!!!! In fact when Obama responded to the personal attacks she proclaimed, “If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen” even though she regularly complains about the heat…

Now the primary is over, her people are pissed but they were not the ones ATTACKED by the Obama campaign, MSM yes- Obama, no. Obama and his constituents WERE ATTACKED by the Clintons, MSM, and their supporters. We were called idealists, stupid, naive, then in the same breath academics, cult like, or racist for wanting to see someone other than a white person win the white house. Anyone wanted to see the role of position evolve were thought of as ridiculous saps that know nothing of the importance… Apparently Barrack couldn’t field a 3am phone call but Hillary was talking loopy at 11pm. Supposedly, black people only voted for him because of race- erasing any possibility that there are intelligent people of color who also see his merits, not to mention white people, her peers, who said NO to the Hillary. White women however, never got polled about voting because of Hillary’s gender…

This is not to say Hillary was not mistreated by the media, but her history in this country, especially having to do to with the Clinton machine, campaign strategy, and professional style has made a long list of enemies- Barrack had NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. She did NOT walk in with a clean slate. But instead of elevating the issues, like Obama did with his speech on race, she did nothing. She blamed, she deflected, she lied, and she did not apologize.

Now there are all these white women- sorry but I have to say it. I can say "women," but frankly we live in a racial divided country whether white people recognize it or not. Whites have the privilege of being invisible, regarded the standard that every non white is compared to, so when the media says women they mean WHITE women. Racial groups are apparently not gendered, so I will claim my own groups- Latina and female. WHITE WOMEN are upset, now here we go... let's draw all of our attention on them, their needs, their desires, their dreams, and their feelings and to hell with what I need.

Aside from needing a real leader in the White House, I need white women to acknowledge that their fight resulted in stepping on- scratch that- TRAMPLING on people of color, including women of color in order to have their say. I'm not saying that they shouldn't have had their say, because they should. What I am saying is that right now I am so ANGRY because white women, ruffed me up for a year and now you want Barrack Obama to apologize to you? Kiss your ass for your vote? I should try and win you? You get the covers of magazines, the benefit of the standard of beauty, and everything else and I should what? Try and get you to vote for YOUR ISSUES?

In recent history there have been a number of moments where whites and people of color (and people with critical consciousness on race in the AmeriKKKa) have our racial truths emerge NATIONALLY as a sick country. The OJ Simpson trial comes to mind, and now we have another moment where blacks and whites sit on opposite sides of the fence. With this moment in time however, my beef is SPECIFICALLY with white women.

They- WHITE WOMEN'S RACISM aka WHITE FEMINISM has picked a wound we were all too polite to pay any attention to since the 70s. And this wound will forever, I fear, disable our capacity to work together. The fight and the struggle of so many feminists of color were the histories that impacted my view of my own power as a woman. It was what I had to read to recognize that my culture does not always fall in sync with white America, and that’s ok I’m still a feminist. Over this last year, I actually feel what women whom I see as she-roes experienced- white women not giving a shit about us. It's about their lives, their experiences, their dreams, and their desires- in tact and without regard for other's struggles despite the fact that they run congruently or parallel to theirs. Forget about we. On the road Hillary was saying me first, party second. White feminists were saying- white women first and the hell with the rest, including women of color.

For you people who are saying that we should get over it, I have to say respectfully. FUCK YOU. My silence for so long allowed you to believe you can dominate me. Our country is where it is because of the countless number of times you completely disregarded my people's needs, dreams, and will. True feminism invokes dialogue but you didn’t want to dialogue- you wanted a Hillary Clinton fight.

I want an apology for the dirty fight, the selfish fight, the racist fight that Hillary Clinton and her supporters waged. Every time a Clinton feminist joined in on Reverend Wright racism, you said I don’t have respect for sisters of color. Hit the WIKI for 49 others reasons… and give me some more time, I’ll think of some more reasons in addition to that. You all owe ME an apology.

I could care less about your individual votes. I will work with you on this election because it is bigger than just me, but I need to heal too. Let me just say that a Presidential win will not be enough to get over this beef.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

jelana — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:47:00 -0000

tlw,

You are making an assumption which is really not true. I disapprove of many of their policies, not only abroad, but in the US as well. They created policies which definitely did not benefit Black America but unfortunately many here in the US don't realize that. I was making a general statement as to why they lost the Black vote here. Most of the people on this blog already understand the Clinton's negative policies.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

TLW — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 19:39:00 -0000

Yeah, it wasn't the part the Clintons played in the promulgation of many policies that screwed over Black people not only in Urban America, but in other parts of the world such as the Caribbean and Africa, it was when they said some mean things to Obama.

This is why I have always been a skeptic of Black Bougie people, they only think about themselves and will pretend that their intrests represents the Black collective when it clearly doesn't.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

PTCruiser — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:47:00 -0000

Amen, Jelana, amen. Although this point is never mentioned by the mainstream, even by black reporters and columnists, black folks were aware of its importance and they did not care for being slighted and taken for granted.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

jelana — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:38:00 -0000

What the Clinton's failed to realize
is that they needed to treat the black base with white kid gloves just

as Obama treated Hillary and her supporters. Their failure to do this

has brought about her negative legacy.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

heartsandflowers — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:19:00 -0000

As divisive as the Clintons were it did not work! I will give Obama credit for his view that thing are not static - at least in this situation. If it had been a diffrent election cycle or a few years ago it would have derailed his campaign. Some of the Clinton voters get it though I will never understand how someone remained a supporter considering all of the deplorable things they did. Had Obama used similar tactics I would not have let it slide. Clinton did more damage than any Republican simply because it was assumed that they were 'bad' and Democrats are 'good'. Now that all pretenses are gone, all prejudices have been revealed, Black people can take comfort in knowing where we stand, how our loyalty has been viewed and think about the value we place in giving our loyalty without conditions. From this point forward we need to give serious consideration to our future, exercising political acumen and strategy and how will we implement that. Black women especially need to do so because the focus is still on wooing older white female voters or on whether sexism dominated the campaign with no serious discussion about the impact of how it was used by by some white women to subjugate Black women. Since 6 out of 10 Black voters are women our contribution to securing the nomination for Obama should receive the proper acknowledgment and we should be thinking about how we want this to benefit us in meeting our needs and not be taken for granted.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

justice58 — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:44:00 -0000

Town,

Look at you! Just putting it down!

I love it! Preach it!

hahahahahahahahaha

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

andyfrombrooklyn — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:34:00 -0000

flygyrl, i don't think easing clinton voters away from her is the same as giving a free pass to billary for their ugliness. so don't lose your anger. i suggest putting it in the closet for now. bring it out when she is up for reelection by mounting a challenge to her in the party primary as per ned lamont/lieberman.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

flygyrl72 — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 14:12:00 -0000

To Anonymous, did you say to just "let it go"?! Like it's all okay now?! After this chick has divided the Democratic party into all these different sections, maybe even permanently?

Dude, I don't think so. These people have put a festering sore on the Democratic party that I can only pray will heal in time for November.

Here's where your little theory is wrong: We, as citizens, as voters, have a right to demand two important things from our politicians, Accountability & Clarity (I bit this from Arianna Huffington, just saw her speak about a month & a half ago). So, that means, you should hold your candidate Accountable for what they say, how they behave, run their campaign, represent you while in office, etc. And when they're not conducting themselves in a way that you consider acceptable, you hold them responsible for their actions or inaction, not accept excuses. Secondly, if they're doing something that you may not quite understand or agree with, you should demand clarity from them on how they're addressing issues. If you're not clear on how or why they're going about something from a particular angle, you ask them to explain themselves. Make them CLARIFY. Only then, can you make an informed decision on whether or not the person is still worthy of your support or vote. And you know what? The way Hilary Clinton ran her campaign doesn't stand up to either my accountability or clarity tests, she can't possibly give a satisfactory response to justify some of the hatred that she delibrately injected into this contest.

In other words, you don't just give people a free pass on shit when they've behaved horribly, especially the way this woman has gone about it. This was one of the nastiest campaigns in Democratic history. Her behavior was unconscionable & if I was Barack, she'd never hold any position in my Cabinet. She has no integrity, it's horrible. She cannot be trusted. She's proven it.

And you say we should feel sorry for them? What?! You're funny...

I will say though, that here in Los Angeles, I've been an active Obama volunteer, & I am willing to work with any former Clinton supporters in order to defeat McCain in November. I don't really hold a grudge against most of her supporters in the same way I hold HRC responsible.

So, while yeah, the bigger picture is important, I don't think anyone that's expressing ill will towards the Clintons, is saying that they won't work with some of her supporters in order to drum up support for Barack in the fall.

We just saying we ain't about to play Step n Fetch It while we're at it, stroking egos & catering to hurt feelings and what not.

I'll work with anyone in order for the common goal of an Obama victory, independents, Obama-cans, Clinton supporters, come one, come all. But leave the bitterness at home, because we don't have time for it.

Let's get a Dem back in the White House ya'll. GO OBAMA!!!

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

flygyrl72 — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:26:00 -0000

I don't care what she tries to say now, after the fact, some words & actions, you just can't take back. It's too late for her to try to get on board now. And you know that she's only doing it because the rest of the party has come down on her like a ton of bricks for being such a poor loser. Her speech rang insincere to me, I can't stand her or her husband now. They can go to hell. And I hope, that we, as a people, don't just re-embrace their sorry behinds with open arms. Because they totally sold us out during this campaign ya'll. So she can go boo-hoo to all her "hard-working White American" voters & let's see if they'll be enough to re-elect her ass back to the Senate. We should let the Clintons see the true political folly they committed by discounting our vote & our love we'd had for them for so long. Fuck her! I'll never support anything Billary does again. Ever.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Anonymous — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:07:00 -0000

Let it go already!!! He won. The Clintons go back to New York or wherever with their tails between their legs. For folks to hold onto the Clintons' behavior gives them too much power.

The Clintons use of racial polarization is nothing new and for folks to hold so much hatred for them indicates to me that they feel that their hope is in the Clintons' hands. You're holding too much disdain for someone who lost. You should fee sorry for them.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

andyfrombrooklyn — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:05:00 -0000

and obviously she will not be the running mate.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

andyfrombrooklyn — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 13:04:00 -0000

to let it go or not to let it go? that is the question. or maybe to forgive and forget or to forgive and not forget? what serves our interests best? if the begalas of the world don't get it, they never will. we have won. obama will become president. his strategy is not to press the issue of clinton's ugliness. the post mortems on her campaign are not as scathing as we might like but they don't deny her defeat. they all acknowledge obama's strength as a candidate. let's try to accentuate this positive. get as many clinton voters on board as possible. eyes on the prize. forgive but maybe not forget. how's that?

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Craig Hickman — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 12:50:00 -0000

Jill,

She had a hard time saying Barack's name because for most of the primary she called him "my opponent" refusing to say his name.

Here's what I know:

If he puts her on his ticket, he will lose. For sure.

If he doesn't put her on his ticket, her "acolytes" will do everything in their power to make sure he loses. They are already making that crystal clear and nothing she said yesterday is going to change that.

This is what we must do:

Get To Work to Make Sure He Wins

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

marvy — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:52:00 -0000

I believe that Obama and his staff are smart enough to know that the Clintons can't be trusted. They fell into that race-baiting far too easily for my comfort, and her smug attitude and the former president's nasty comments can't be ignored. So yes, accept her help, but definitely keep an eye on her and her subordinates at all times.

And you guys really should not feed the trolls. I've been lurking for a while, and what I've seen is about as far from ignorant as Hillary has been from being gracious.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Town — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:09:00 -0000

"I don't exactly see Barack as the ride or die type for black issues anyway."

Well, we know Hillary wasn't riding or dying for black issues, so your argument is null and void.

Basically you want us (black folk) to kiss your (white women) asses or you'll "withhold" your vote.

If you're not going to vote for Barack Obama because of what black bloggers said, you weren't going to vote for him anyway. Let's stop this silly game.

You are saying you won't vote for Obama unless YOU have the upper hand. Well guess what? You don't have the upper hand. If you did, Hillary would be the nominee, period.

Hillary Clinton and her campaign and fanatical supporters did a LOT of damage and just because Hillary said "Um, ok, yeah, go Barack. Ok." does not mean she and her crew gets let off the hook.

You cannot tell me that Barack Obama did not get not even ONE vote in Harlem. I betcha if you went back and looked at the results from the 2000 and 2004 elections George Bush got at least 1 vote. So we know that Clinton and her gang were riding dirty in Harlem.

Personally I expect B. Clinton to move his office out of Harlem b/c he didn't want to be there in the first place. It was just cheaper. Time will tell.

At any rate, what Hillary and her gang did was damaging not only to black politicians on the rise, but any non-white, non-straight and non-right kind of Christian candidate.

How many black politicians are now wondering if their churches are liabilities? It's only a matter of time before a black politician running in a non-black district is asked why they are going to a BLACK church anyway?

Look at all the speculation on whether or not Obama was Muslim or not. Somewhere, there's a young American who is Muslim who just reconsidered serving his community because of the anti-Muslim attitude going on.

I personally believe the race baiting is what made Bill Richardson run away from the Clintons, because if they're pulling that race game on Obama, they would pull it on him, too. Look at how much more publically nasty the Clinton crew was to Richardson when he defected, than when whites like Robert Reich defected. Don't think that wasn't noticed by non-black minorities, either.

So it can't be forgotten, because Hillary and them were literally trying to put non-white candidates in the back of the bus. And if you're a Hillary supporter and think, "well that's just politics, live with it," remember, that playbook could be used against women, too.

Any Hillary supporter who comes on a pro-black, pro-Obama blog with an attitude is just trying to get justification why they shouldn't vote for Obama. I say "woman up" and just don't vote for Obama. I'm not voting for McCain and I'm not in emotional distress or doing mental backflips trying to force myself to vote for McCain; I'm just not.

Anyone who claims "that blog was mean to me and so I'm not voting for X," wasn't going to vote for that candidate anyway, so cut the games.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

PTCruiser — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 07:53:00 -0000

"What is ignorant (myopic, shortsighted, whatever adjective you might perfer) is the reluctance to work together, when we all clearly need each other to enact the change that we discuss."

Please spare me, Danielle. You and "Anonymous" continue to claim that you want to work with people with whom you disagree but it is our fault if you call us ignorant and moronic. If you want to discuss our differences then go ahead but stop the name calling.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Plantsmantx — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 04:10:00 -0000

"I'm less concerned with Obama's ability to foster inclusiveness than I am with our individual ability to push away potential supporters."

Listen, if these people are Democrats, and they are so disturbed by Obama's successful run for the nomination that they intend to vote for McCain, I don't think there's much anyone can do to stop them, especially if they've made that decision based on being offended by what they heard or read someone an Obama supporter say, rather that based on what Obama himself has said They're irrational, and I doubt they can be brought around.

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Plantsmantx — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:59:00 -0000

So, what you're saying is that even though the showed zero votes for Obama, in order not to be seen as people who think that all blacks are supposed to vote for Obama, we were supposed to act as if he really didn't get any votes in Harlem? That makes no sense.

Yes, he won, but as others have said here, it's not really about him, at least not totally. "Whining", huh? What game are you playing? Ostensibly, here to ask us to kiss the asses of white Clinton supporters for the greater good, not to mention let Clinton slide on the race-baiting strategy that was actually used against all of us, but you (and anonymous) can't resist insulting us in the process. Why is that?

Re: The Clinton Legacy with Black Voters

Elephants&Flowers — Sun, 08 Jun 2008 03:43:00 -0000

We won the nomination and we're still upset about how things went down. Imagine how the losers (Clintonites) are feeling. Then realize that we're ALL going to be losers, if we don't get on the same page.

I'm less concerned with Obama's ability to foster inclusiveness than I am with our individual ability to push away potential supporters. As I've said in previous posts, follow Obama's lead.

Be Magnanimous,

Be Empathetic,

Be Knowledgeable,

B. Obama '08