Jack and Jill Politics - Latest Comments in Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

TruthSeeker — Fri, 23 May 2008 03:33:00 -0000

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Fri, 23 May 2008 00:51:00 -0000

Rhonda

I agree, only I would say they attempt to do these things, I don't believe they've been successful in their attempts. Each time Obama has played the game his way and played it well.

They talked about his bowling, he then went and shot hoops and said he was going to take the bowling alley out of the whitehouse and install a basketball court - now that's in your face.

There is no doubt Rhonda that they have tried to emasculate him, however, his strength is shown in his ability to maintain his composure, speak with a clear head, showcase his beautiful family and finally, secure the nomination and God willing, the presidency.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Fri, 23 May 2008 00:44:00 -0000

I meant to say when she implies that black journalists are also responsible for the sexism.

When in fact Bob Herbert, one of the journalists she name, was maybe the only journalist who wrote a story about sexism in this campaign.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Fri, 23 May 2008 00:41:00 -0000

Michelle

I mean that they are using the sexism guise, and I do mean guise, to express their irrational anger (which can not be honestly spoken) against him for not staying in his place and Ferraro even takes it a step further when she implicates "black" journalists are too responsible for this sexism.

IMO all of this absurd accusation of sexism is merely a way of lashing out - Gerry tried the racism thing way back and that didn't work.

Sexism is the one claim feminists can attribute to their oppression which is in no way real, but really, what else do they have? It's over!

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

RhondaCoca — Thu, 22 May 2008 22:12:00 -0000

Ms.Martin...Michelle...

Interestingly, that idea of "ownership" is also held by white men who are often threaten by a sucessful and smart black man therefore needing to discredit him. That often occurs in demasculating in way shape of form. They too have questioned his masculinity in overt terms.

The bowling thing is one of many, many examples. White men in the mainstream media had such a great time doing that.

One guy on MSNBC the other day said that Obama had no testosterone.

Sylvia Walsh's "Boo!" comment reminded me of Mick Huckabee's "Obama dropped to the floor"comment.

They effectively get two things done:

1. They are able to remove the threat that he possesses to them while being able to superfically feel that they dominate or control him.

2. Then, they are able to make him seem like a weak and incapable leader who wont be able to protect the American people.

Interesting.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

RhondaCoca — Thu, 22 May 2008 21:54:00 -0000

Michelle, Ms.Martin, Rene:

Sylia Walsh belongs to a long line of them. For her to be so snarky and brazen about it mad me scream. I am still yet to comment.

They talk of sexism and condscension yet they do it all the time to Obama.

Finding his fidelity to Michelle to be troubling is what made me go off from the beginning. Talking about break-ups, betrayal and psychology?? Really

I never knew that cheating on your wife was a reassurance of someone's manhood. Since when did someone have to "turn on" women like herself sexually in order to get their support.

Michelle-

".....a white female assertion of assumed ownership of Black men."

I agree, I agree.

Her article was a load of crap.

Completely demeaning and condescending to say the least.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Michelle — Thu, 22 May 2008 21:47:00 -0000

Ms. Martin: ".....a white female assertion of assumed ownership of Black men."

Isn't this really what this entire tantrum that Hillbitch & company are having is about.

I hadn't thought about it that way but it resonates.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your take on it though (I could be! I think I may be missing something about the heterosexual dynamic of it or something).

But if not it reminds me of another dynamic of the white-race-loyalty-feminism I've been thinking about ... I wrote this a few days ago trying to think out loud:

-------------------------------

Focus on Senator Obama's supposed "sexism" is actually a form of coded racism. Using the woman/gender thing as cover for what they are really saying, which that Senator Obama is aggressive and scary because he is BLACK. But that's not what they say, they code it under "man" and "sexist."

So they can express, in a socially acceptable way, all their hatred and fury of a BLACK (man) seeking leadership under cover of saying it's just his gender and it's sexism -- and Clinton and they are the victims. The myth of the Black male rapist of pure unsullied white womanhood exists for a reason.

I think this form of white-race-loyalty-feminism is flat-out terrified of and furious about the possibility of a Black man, or actually a Black person of either gender, in power. To the core.

From this angle I think it may go beyond what B-serious said about uppity N*** cutting in line. It may be that in this perspective, Black people have no real place in that line to begin with because the line is for consolidating power among white people.

White-race-loyalty-feminism is about including white women in this line and in places of power in this society -- first as white people, and specifically as white people who want the full benefits and advantages of being white.

--------------

So Ms. Martin, I'm thinking -- again I may not be understanding what you said -- but seems to me like some form of ownership of Black men (and Black women for that matter, though again I suspect maybe there is some hetero dynamic that I am not getting here) is part of the cluster of white power that white-race-loyalty-feminism wants to be sure to have and retain a piece of.

Hmm, and I'm reminded of the whole thing where Ms. Hillary said Senator Obama should be her VP when he was ahead of her anyway. Because for her the proper place of that Black man is to be owned inside HER administration, that's what that move said to me.

I remember at that time I was struggling really really hard with something going on from the Obama campaign, I think it was that the senator lost his center for a little while (I remember him talking self-critically about it later in an interview, saying he was performing more than connecting).

Anyway, I remember that because I was feeling kind of down and depressed about the campaign and then BAM he came out with that marvelous corrective commentary about how he was running for President and not VP and the energy of it was just so strong and clear. I was practically calling back at him and cheering as I read the transcript, it was that powerful to my eyes.

And I was sort of thinking then and clearly thinking now: that power was his refusal to let her own him, that power was him standing as a real human being and as a leader -- and not an object for white ownership. It was beautiful to me.

Again -- I could be misunderstanding what you wrote, though, and I am sorry if so, that I just took what you wrote and ran with it so long in another direction.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Thu, 22 May 2008 20:16:00 -0000

Michelle:

".....a white female assertion of assumed ownership of Black men."

Isn't this really what this entire tantrum that Hillbitch & company are having is about.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Michelle — Thu, 22 May 2008 19:18:00 -0000

Wow. That Sylvia Welsh article is UGLY. In that smarmy "I'm going to pretend to be nice but am stabbing you with a smile on my face" kind of passive-aggressive vibe.

Rene wrote: I don't understand why these white women (Walsh, Maureen Dowd) believe its okay to question Obama's masculinity. Who the f**k is she to define what's sexy, what is masculine, especially in regards to a black man.

The white-hetero-women-defining-Black-masculinity (and relatedly assessing Senator Obama for sexiness) is to my eyes a white female assertion of assumed ownership of Black men.

Really disgusting.

and @ rikyrah and Ms. Martin, I'm glad to read your comments about what I wrote in the other thread. Ms. Martin, I remember Gloria Steinem getting schooled by Melissa Harris-Lacewell ...

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Rene — Thu, 22 May 2008 18:21:00 -0000

The Sylvia Welsh post on HuffPost blew me away. I tried to comment but I couldn't get through. Anyone else have this problem? I don't understand why these white women (Walsh, Maureen Dowd) believe its okay to question Obama's masculinity. Who the f**k is she to define what's sexy, what is masculine, especially in regards to a black man. This post crossed the line for me. On a related point, Ms. Welsh suggests that David Axelrod made Obama. Enough!

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Thu, 22 May 2008 17:55:00 -0000

Not only is it not her turn, she's not calling any shots on how he proceeds.

Shut them down now!

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Thu, 22 May 2008 17:50:00 -0000

Michelle, Michelle, Michelle

If anyone can prove what you said isn't true, I will change my name to Hillary Clinton.

In fact, Melissa Harris-Lacewell schooled Gloria Steinam on NPR on this very topic months ago.

I say it's time for black women to come together as a loud voice of one for Obama.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

RhondaCoca — Thu, 22 May 2008 17:07:00 -0000

Rikyrah-

Did you read the article by Sylvia Walsh "The Shrinkage Factor" that Anon suggested she has to be crazy.

Excerpts:

"Barack Obama may be the only male politician of any significance in the past, say, one thousand years who is faithful to his wife. Does anyone doubt Obama's fidelity? Now that it's near certain he will be the Democratic nominee, I've been trying to sort out why I don't think this is a good thing. It's not that I'm pro-infidelity, mind you. As a psychologist who has seen many couples torn to pieces over it, I know how corrosive betrayal is to a relationship. Yet, Obama's certain fidelity is somehow troubling me."

"Obama is a nice guy. And, as most any woman will tell you, "nice" guys finish last. And they finish last because, well, they just aren't very sexy. Power, for better or worse, is a turn on."

http://www.huffingtonpost.c...

Are you kidding me? I am going to comment later. I avoided posting now because I may get banned from Huffington.

This is sexist, disturbing and even racist to a degree.

Obama does not match of up what she thinks black men are.

They are not faithful husbands.

They are not faithful fathers.

Hypermasculinity...hypersexuality.

Agressive.

Chest beating.

A sexual object rather than intellectual.

No moral values.

She wants him to fit this paradigm.

And god forbid he is married, happy and faithful to his black wife and children!!

She wants him to be the "angry black man" that America likes to see and run from!!

He knows exactly how he must present himself to avoid that characterization by any definition.

If he doesnt fit this then its "troubling". She is confused!

Obama has his masculinity questioned every day while Hillary cries sexism.

Wow.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

rikyrah — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:46:00 -0000

michelle,

you are on the money. They've already dogged, then insulted Black women who wouldn't go along with their 'Sisterhood' bullshit about Hillpatine. I've known for awhile that their feminism means nothing to my life. Nothing to my family. They don't have my family at heart. It's the sense of ENTITLEMENT. It was 'her turn'. This isn't hopskotch; it's the Presidency of the United States of America.

" Her turn?"

I don't think so.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Michelle — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:32:00 -0000

Ok, I said some of what I think about the "women" and sexism thing in the Hillary/popular vote post from today, because I couldn't help myself. I kind of thought I was in today's open thread post but I wasn't. So I'm going to also post the link to my comment here in the open thread:

IMO it's not about "a large chunk of women" who will defect from the party, it's about ....

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

RhondaCoca — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:29:00 -0000

David Paterson says that Clinton is desperate!

http://www.nydailynews.com/...

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

RhondaCoca — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:23:00 -0000

Anon 10:28-

I am going to have to read it. You have to be joking. These people dont cease to amaze me.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

texas girl in l.a. — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:16:00 -0000

Obama will fill in for Kennedy at Wesleyan

Ted Kennedy was going to give the Sunday's commencement address at Wesleyan University.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

bpm — Thu, 22 May 2008 16:05:00 -0000

McCain just "rejected" Hagee's endorsement.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

rikyrah — Thu, 22 May 2008 15:31:00 -0000

The TPM post by Josh Marshall is pretty good.

Anonymous,

I'm on my way to Huffingtonpost. It's not the first time Obama's ' Manhood' has been questioned. It's been a pattern. I know you can see it.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Lv99 Slacker — Thu, 22 May 2008 15:11:00 -0000

Breaking: Rove subpoenaed

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

D. — Thu, 22 May 2008 14:18:00 -0000

You all should appreciate this:

Trail of Tall Tales: John McCain

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Anonymous — Thu, 22 May 2008 13:28:00 -0000

Please take a look at the recent post by Sylvia Welsh at the Huffington Post. She ponders why Obama's fidelity bothers her. In the process, she goes on to say outrageous things about Obama's lack of chest thumping aggression, and how it makes him unsexy to women. Lots more tripe like that.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

RhondaCoca — Thu, 22 May 2008 13:19:00 -0000

Yea Craig and Bpm-

They have no pride. They need to lose their seats. There is so much going on out here in NY and people are becoming discontent with these congress people.

Kevin Powell is going after Ed Towns seat.

How can you see that someone is race-baiting but still suppport them. That means that you support their tactics.

I think that they are nervous. The Clintons are powerful here in New York. They took over my poor state and city. Bill Clinton has his office in Harlem etc... I think that they are scared of pissing off the "masta" if you get my jest. They are nervous that if they dont support her, it will come with consequences. I figure that thats whats floating in their head. However Tubbs Jones, Jackson Lee and all the rest, have no excuse.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Craig Hickman — Thu, 22 May 2008 12:52:00 -0000

bpm, it kinda makes me wonder what the Clintons have on the rats who won't jump.