Jack and Jill Politics - Latest Comments in Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:15:00 -0000

"I want opposing viewpoints to this blog to be up for discussion and rebuttal."

Who cares what you want for this blog, you're not the owner; however, you cannot create your own blog for free and direct that conversation!

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:38:00 -0000

S

I remember now, you came on board around Pennsylvania and you were trying to convince us that the hard-working Americans, white Americans were necessary for Obama for Obama to win the nomination. I remember you talking about your brothers and men who wouldn't dare vote for Obama.

Every since then, all you've done is pick and pick about every media generated issue against Obama.

You've been here for one reason - to agitate.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 02:33:00 -0000

S

That won't be a problem at all.

Again, another who wasn't going to vote for Obama using their vote as a tool. If I recall all of your arguments, points of view were against Obama and his policies. All of your attempts were to convince us that he was wrong.

Either you support Obama's policies or McCain's regardless of how either's other supporters think or feel.

I know I'm voting my interests and neither you nor anybody else could change that.

If you are so offended by the posts and comments then be gone.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:56:00 -0000

ms martin,

I have advocated for the surge, keeping taxes low, energy independence and school choice.

Just today we debated the post about McCain and Katrina. I tried to round out what I saw to be a limited account of McCain's record.

I cite other articles to reinforce my viewpoint and cut and paste because I doubt my links will be followed. I want opposing viewpoints to this blog to be up for discussion and rebuttal.

Like I said, independent swing voters are a key to winning in November and I my interest in Obama was peaked by his supposed appeal to moderates.

My position has actually hardened against Obama since I started coming here. It is due mostly to the posts, comments and responses I have received here.

So I guess you will have to register one more voter to offset me because you seem uninterested in persuading me.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Craig Hickman — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:49:00 -0000

rikyrah, I think I posted in another thread that James Buchanan was elected president without ever being married. To a woman.

He had a live-in effeminate male friend for 15 years. That male friend, William Rufus King, became Franklin Pierce's VP.

Buchanan's first lady was his adopted daughter (an orphaned niece).

He never married.

Nothing like that could happen now, I don't suppose, but it's in our nation's history.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:05:00 -0000

"Many progressives think that if they just keep registering more new voters that they can overwhelm the electorate and silence dissent. Many progressives think that if they just keep registering more new voters that they can overwhelm the electorate and silence dissent. "

New Democratic voters will replace Democratic voters who insist their voting for McCain instead of Obama because illary didn't win.

There's no desire to silence your dissent, just your policies.

Dissent all you wish, just don't attempt to shove it down my throat.

s you've been here forever constantly telling us what you don't like about Obama and not once have you advocated for McCain or his issues. That's not dissenting for you have offered nothing in opposition except for articles regarding Obama that you've cut and pasted from articles. If you must dissent, please do it with your thoughts.

Ms. Irish

I ask again what do you want here? To debate about illary is foolish - she's out. If you wish to wallow in that loss then I suggest you find some fellow Hillary supporters and work it out with them.

Nobody hear called you racist. You don't have to support Obama, but you don't get to beat us up for supporting him.

I suggest you get some counseling about your inability to deal with your feelings about illary's loss.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Town — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:49:00 -0000

Irish,

I'm not "insulting" you "just for coming on this blog", I'm calling you out on your condescending attitude. Your mere presence is not important enough to "insult."

You want Obama and his supporters to stop denigrating Hillary, I

would have loved it if Hillary and Hillary supporters stopped denigrating Obama and Obama supporters. Stop acting like Hillary and her stans are completely blameless victims of the Obama Boogeymen because you're not.

You come on here acting like your vote is worth a barrel of oil and Obama and his supporters need to kiss your ass to get the oil when you know all along you're giving it to John McCain.

And you never did answer MY question, which is "Why didn't Hillary Clinton feel the need to EARN the BLACK vote?" If she had worked to earn the black vote, she'd be pimp walking down the halls of the Senate as the presumptive nominee, not Obama.

Really. How exactly was Hillary going to win the general election without a sizable chunk of the black vote? Or are black votes not worthy of being earned?

Well, Hillary found out the hard way what the worth of the black vote really was.

Then you cry that you won't be back because it's too "anti white" around here. Nobody's "anti-white" on here. I am personally anti-BULLSHIT, which I detect dripping off of you like sweat dripping a road crew worker laying down asphalt on a 101 degree day.

Again you come on here defending yourself against accusations that were never made (you being a racist and hating men) and you claim you just "wanna talk." No you don't. You want to talk AT us and you want to use US as an excuse not to vote for Barack Obama.

You really don't need to explain what's up because it's crystal clear to everyone in this comments box.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

texas girl in l.a. — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:41:00 -0000

Hi Irish,

Your tone sounds a lot different than what I read in your first post. I read it while I was at work and was thinking...wow! She's angry. I think if you had treated the JJP family with the respect you are asking for, you would have received a better reception. The people here are open to having a conversation with Hillary's supporters, but damn...you came here with fighting words. The healing really needs to begin soon.

I wish you well.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:34:00 -0000

honey01,

I don't know about that. I have had some pretty good discussions here,

but have also had to endure some pretty rough comments. So be it.

I realize how very different our perspectives and personal political philosophies are.

I came to this blog believing Obama was a moderate. Hoping his supporters were moderate too.

He is not. Most here are not.

I realize that Obama's idea of change, is nothing more than a whole scale attempt to dupe well-meaning and reasonable individuals to buy into a 'progressive' agenda by claiming to want to seek common ground and unite the country.

Only progressives who support Obama unequivocally are welcomed here.

But I keep coming back because I think that moderates and independents will swing this election, and I want to express my viewpoint. Many progressives think that if they just keep registering more new voters that they can overwhelm the electorate and silence dissent. Many here don't try to persuade, they mostly try to intimidate, shout down, engage in 'gotcha' politics and personal attacks. As Jack most recently admitted, many here practice in the very politics Obama says he wants to move this country away from.

It is a real disconnect and it has been very illuminating.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 23:34:00 -0000

Teacher,

Please- nothing you said has anything to do with what I wrote.

You've decided to oppose anything I write because I don't back Obama, but it's not like I'm pro-war.

Y'all exhaust me with the anti-logic. I honestly just keep checking back to see if anyone's being rational yet. Looks like it will take a few days.

-Ms. Irish

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

teacher — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:58:00 -0000

Town & Ms. Martin, you all are warriors.

A POX on the warmongers!

You want to keep the war going so you won't feel like you "lost" but you don't want your taxes raised to pay for the war you want? The cost of the illegal, unethical war is bankrupting our country! We are borrowing from China and one day we will have to repay. This is stupid.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:45:00 -0000

Town-

It seems we are never going to respectfully disagree, that you are always going to insult me for coming to this blog and many other things, and you know nothing about me. You also don't try, and that is a shame for all of us.

You probably think I am a terrible, bitter white person who hates blacks. Maybe you think I am a woman who hates men. Apparently I can't say anything to change your mind so screw it.

I am just sorry you can't get a glimpse of my experience, which I am sure is different from yours, but it still matters. When it comes down to it, you know nothing about me.

There is no Hillaryland that I visit- even on the internet. I don't want you, and all Obama supporters, or all black Obama supporters to kiss my ass. I want y'all to not gratuitously denigrate my preferred candidate.

I want to feel good about whoever I choose to vote for in November. The primary is over and Clinton lost- go ahead and rain on my parade and try to get my vote later when everyone cools their temper (maybe).

My vote should mean no more or less than any 'white dude in Colorado'.

I want to be able to have a civil dialogue with people who are involved in politics. I respect you, and I think I have shown that.

Just respect me in turn.

Bests,

Ms. Irish

ps- Evita, sorry but I don't think I will be back. I don't like the feel here, it's too angry and anti-Clinton and anti-white.

I've been attacked too many times to feel the Obama love just yet, but I am exactly the kind of voter who should flip. Most people here are too angry to even talk to me rationally.

You can't convince me I'm a racist, and apparently you can't believe I just wanted to talk. Imust be a spy, right?

I'll think about it, but I doubt it. In the meantime, try to cool things down now that you've won a battle, and try not to lose the war.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

evita — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:30:00 -0000

ms Irish-

Let us know when you are back and we can continue to discuss notions of codified language. I encourage you however to take a look at the Clinton Wiki on race...

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

honey01 — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:49:00 -0000

I thought Irish said she "was out"?

Be gone, poof! No need to lurk either.

@Town,

And the church said "Amen". I agree with everyword.

@Smoothie, you tried very hard and you should be commended. But, her slant was not was one of a truly tortured voter looking to be swayed. Nor was it one with the pretense of honest dialogue. That goes for anonymous, S, commi, etc.

Yes, this is political blog with a Black perspective in which most contributors support Obama. However, we are not above debate on actual ISSUES. You can not come here with that BS.

honey01

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

B-Serious — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:41:00 -0000

McCain, as a presidential candidate, called Vietnamese captors, "gooks" in 2000. Yes. . . that's a racial slur on par with (and probably worse than) "whitey." And he refused to apologize at first (although he eventually apologized later).

He wasn't forced out of the race for it. Those were his words. Now Republicans are praying that a candidate's spouse said "whitey," so they can smear the candidate, Obama, for something he didn't say.

I doubt that such a tape exists. We live in a YouTube era and this rumor has been cirulating for about a month. You can't keep that under wraps in this age . . .someone would have leaked it already.

But, if it does, it won't be enough to sink his campaign. On the list of scandals (e.g., dead girl/live boy, affairs, criminal activity) "whitey" ranks pretty low.

And again, I can't believe the Obamas would be that dumb. And if they were, I can't believe they'd let the rumor fester without making every effort to get ahead of the story.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

rikyrah — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:32:00 -0000

Could a bachelor ever win a presidential election? There are very few high office holders who are unmarried. Lindsay Graham, the Senator, has never been married. Other than him I can't think of anyone else.

I do not believe a bachelor could ever win a Presidential Election.

I mean a never married man.

A divorced man with children - I dunno. I believe we want our Presidents to be married.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

rikyrah — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:31:00 -0000

As far as Michelle being on The View...Whoopi and Sherri are going to be so excited, they won't be able to contain themselves.

I think from one strong ' broad' to another, Joy is gonna love having Michelle there.

As for Elisabeth, Michelle will swat her away the same way she shut down Meredith Viera in that interview.

And me? I'm going to enjoy every single minute of it.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

rikyrah — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:26:00 -0000

Marius,

You might be Black outside of the USA, but come on, Brother, what Black person do you know, of the Obama's Generation, calls White folks ' Whitey'.

WHITEY?

COme on.

" Da Man" - yes.

MAYBE

" Cracker."

But, WHITEY? This isn't a Sanford and Son rerun.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Town — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:20:00 -0000

But not to throw water on the party....does ANYONE know whether there is ANY truth to the Michelle Obama "whitey" comments. I hope not...I lived in the Chi for five years before moving last year and never heard a whiff of this. MY GOD, I hope it is not true....

---------------

Marius, if there is a tape, it's probably something very mild that has been overhyped.

Allegedly she was railing against "whitey" for leaving black folks stranded in Katrina. But she allegedly railed against "whitey" in 2004 and Hurricane Katrina didn't happen till 2005.

Allegedly she was standing at the podium with Louis Farrakhan, now they've dug up the pictures from that event and she was with Mrs. Farrakhan, not Louis Farrakhan.

Allegedly all this went down in 2004, which if this really did happen, should have made news back then since Obama was running for the Senate in 2004.

If there "is" an incident, the Obama campaign needs to come out with it now. But, I don't think she went off on "whitey" and "black power" while Barack was running for US Senate. The Republicans were desperate to stop him they imported Alan Keyes to try to stop him.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Town — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:12:00 -0000

Town-

For the record, you will have nothing to do with my vote, don't even flatter yourself. My vote is not on the table, and it means a lot to me- I am calling you on your attitude and trying to understand by talking about issues.

-------------

Basically you want Barack and black people to kiss your ass and do back flips to get your vote, which you have already you're not giving to him in the first place! Remember? You came on here saying you don't like to lose and you think Obama is a loser and at least Republicans know how to win.

Then get the hell on! You want Obama and Obama supporters to kiss your ass to "earn" your vote or you'll vote for McCain. You aren't going to vote for Obama no matter what he does!

You claim, "I'm not voting for Obama unless he puts Clinton on the ticket and she gets the respect she deserves." Jigga whut? Obama has given her much more respect than she deserves. Come on now, cut the bullshit. The only reason you want Hillary on the ticket is so you can vote for HILLARY, not Obama. Again, you're STILL not voting for HIM.

Why you think Obama and Obama supporters should kiss your ass when you KNOW you ain't voting for Obama in November is beyond me!

But check it --- and this is rich --- you go to a pro-Obama site, make stupid demands that you know ain't gonna get met -- all so you can run back to Hillaryland and say "See, they were nasty to me. They don't want to "earn" my vote. So I'm not voting for him."

AGAIN, you ain't voting for Obama period! This is just a little bullshit game. Why is YOUR vote so special that Obama and his supporters need to bend over and kiss your ass to "earn" it?

Why is your vote so much more worthy of being earned than a white dude in Colorado?

And let's talk again about that funky fart in the room: You come on here talking about "Y'all don't wanna EARN my vote," let's talk about earning votes:

Why the hell didn't Hillary try to EARN the black vote?

If Hillary had put half the effort into "earning" the black vote as she did in tearing down Barack Obama, SHE'D BE THE MOFO DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE RIGHT NOW, NOT BARACK OBAMA!

Everyone wants to talk about how Obama has to "earn" the votes of white women and "hard working white Americans," but nobody wants to talk about how Hillary had the black vote in the palm of her hand but when she got that face cracked by the black dude she broke the dogfoghorn (forget the whistle) out and sounded the alarms.

How was Hillary going to win when she was

dogwhistling

racebaiting

spreading whispery rumors about Obama's Muslim ties and attire

calling white people to arms

casually dropping assassination as a reason to stay in the race

sending surrogates out to take racial potshots at Obama

How, exactly, was Hillary going to win the general election in November, without the black vote?

See nobody wants to talk about that funky fart, everyone wants to pretend they don't smell the funk in the room.

So yeah, I have an "attitude." I'm gonna have an "attitude" when somebody comes around, hurls insults and innuendo and then turns around and tells us we NEED to kiss her ass and lick the anus clean before she'll "think" about voting for Obama when you know, I know and this whole blog knows you ain't voting for Obama no matter how many asses are kissed.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

teacher — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:07:00 -0000

O has already mandated that the DNC no longer accept $ from lobbyists & PACs...AND HE ISN'T EVEN PRESIDENT YET!!!! Talk about being ready on day one! That's leadership. Lou Dobbs had to give it up to him because he already has a rule that his appointees can't become lobbyists for 2 years after their job ends(Lou wants it to be 5). Lou is dumbfounded over all the things O has done today that he agrees with. He had to put his ears down.

Truthseeker, I seriously doubt if Elizabeth will say much when Michelle is there. I'm sure she will be afraid and none of them are going to back her up. She'll have a plastic smile on her face like View Barbie. Michelle already has the reputation as a person not to fuck with.

Ms. Irish said: "And hey- if the Senators in question really are apples and apples then why won't Obama mention his record and performance in his public appearances and speeches?"

Because he isn't the egomaniac that hillory is? That information is PUBLIC. You really need to look it up because Hillary lied about and exaggerated hers just like she lied about dodging bullets in Bosnia. I know it's hard for you to hear, but she counted on you all NOT verifying what she said.

Is anyone still counting delegates? I was happy to see Rangel & many other from NY endorse O today.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:57:00 -0000

marius,

The only thing to surface recently is a photo of Michelle Obama with Farakaan's wife at PUSH luncheon.

I don't think it is anything but a rumor.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Ms.Martin — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:56:00 -0000

Ms. Irish

Did you care about how the party nominated before this election cycle?

You said:

"What I want here is a discussion. Reasonable people should always be able make a deal. Apparently you hate my candidate and I merely dislike yours. You ought to be trying, right?"

I'm open to a discussion on the issues regarding the general - the primaries are over and I'm moving forward with the nominee. There is no deal to be made regarding that.

Regarding your candidate and the way I feel about her - it's personal. There were far too many incidents of disrespect for me as an AA and the call to white voters to be angry about blacks supporting Obama. There were so many things illary did in the name of "politics" that were unforgiveable, policies aside. Her policies are very similar to Obama's so left to choose between the two personalities and given the leadership Obama has shown, I choose him.

I still ask what are you looking for here.

It seems you want me to assuage your anger over Hillary's loss, I can't do that.

I suggest you watch the DNC Rules committee meeting for a description of why the primaries were set up the way they were. I'm cool with the way they were arranged.

The one thing you continuously choose to ignore is that Hillary was the inevitable and surely should have been able to win this thing. It was her feelings of entitlement which led to her outbursts that cost her a large portion of her supporters.

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Marius — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:53:00 -0000

As a Black man from the Caribbean...I am just revelling in this Obamamania. I am not sure if I even care if he wins!!! Wait a minute....sure I do! Speaking for a little section of the diaspora THIS IS THE BIGGEST STORY IN THE HISTORY OF BLACK PEOPLE SINCE EMANCIPATION.

But not to throw water on the party....does ANYONE know whether there is ANY truth to the Michelle Obama "whitey" comments. I hope not...I lived in the Chi for five years before moving last year and never heard a whiff of this. MY GOD, I hope it is not true....

Re: Thursday Open Thread- Let it all hang out

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:30:00 -0000

But Ms. Martin,

What about the future? I actually care about how the parties nominate candidate for 2012, 2016, and so on. How many more close primaries are we going to have? Who knows?

I just know that more Dems live in CA than WY, and they should all be equally represented at the convention. Should it be winner take all or proportional? Why are the parties different?

And even if you don't want to earn my vote this time, wouldn't you like to have it and for me to talk to my friends and family about how committed I am? Believe me, I want politicians to earn their jobs and for the best people to win.

Victories feel better when they are landslides and when we can all avoid mud-slinging and insulting people who are not on the ballot. I doubt that even moderate repubs felt good after Bush v. Gore, when for the first time in history the Supreme Ct decided an election. Or after the Swiftboating of 2004.

What I want here is a discussion. Reasonable people should always be able make a deal. Apparently you hate my candidate and I merely dislike yours. You ought to be trying, right?

Instead I read this blog every once in a while see pure vitriol and bitterness and sometimes hatred.

Jonzee-

I am honored to respectfully disagree about almost everything, as long as we are respectful to each other. I'll say up-front that I haven't read any of Obama's books. Maybe he's a really good community organizer, dunno.

About the debates, I noticed that Clinton was much more willing to hash out policy specifics than Obama (like a 90 day moratorium on forclosures). And when, I think it was Tim Russert, asked Obama point blank for something specific he would do about the economy, Obama spouted stories about some Mary Jane at the country store in Missouri and then something about hope and change.

And hey- if the Senators in question really are apples and apples then why won't Obama mention his record and performance in his public appearances and speeches?

Evita, you wrote- I'll speak for myself and not the other people on here: I will not be shut down again by white people asserting what the right standard is for this position. Your language is codified- even if you do not intend it. This is more than an election. It is an expression of history and the very fight that must happen, every day, until we all change.

I would like to know how my language is codified. I don't support Clinton because she's white or female. I don't not support Obama because he is Black and male- I am smarter than that and I will not be reduced to that.

Remember I am not Elizabeth Cady Stanton, or anyone else who's sacrificed the rights of people of color for the rights of white women. I'm just a white woman (oh the horrors!) who was born in 1977, and I know my history.

I have an education and I won't let any politician take me for granted. Even a politician who happens to be Black can let people down with a stupid mistake once s/he let's their guard down after the election.

Hokay, bye again for now. Also- I'll be out of town starting tomorrow so if I am quiet in the next few days that's why.

-Ms. Irish